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Micing Drums
- Thread starter Folmeister
- Start date
Folmeister, I don't know if I've asked you this before, but is that Rev. Bob Dobbs of the Church of the Subgenius in your avatar?
+1 to gating. ive also been a huge fan of cutting the bottom end off of things that dont need it. they seem to make floor toms sound like kicks and kicks sound like nuclear fallout. theres no reason why a floor tom needs to go below 100hz.
depending on the size of the place, you often dont need to mic overheads, and if you do, most people are leaning towards under-cymbal clip mics. im not sure how they mix them, but i see a lot of them.
often clip on tom and snare mics. 2 kicks (in and out), and rarely if ever mic a hi-hat.
57's wont make great overheads. they might make mediocre cymbal spot mics.. but i wouldnt try to pick up the kit with them.
depending on the size of the place, you often dont need to mic overheads, and if you do, most people are leaning towards under-cymbal clip mics. im not sure how they mix them, but i see a lot of them.
often clip on tom and snare mics. 2 kicks (in and out), and rarely if ever mic a hi-hat.
57's wont make great overheads. they might make mediocre cymbal spot mics.. but i wouldnt try to pick up the kit with them.
Same here, except on O/H's, we use two cheap-o small-diameter condensers into an older PreSonic BlueTube stereo mic pre. The BlueTube fattens 'em up AND keeps phantom power out of the rest of my board in an effort to keep my non-Jensen bass pre in one piece!
dcr
Can someone give me some good recommendations on good overhead mics? I don't want to break the bank at Monte Carlo, but if I can get past the "use 57s for everything" stage it would be a good investment.
57's aren't the worst mics you can use for OH's, but most sound companies use condenser mics because they aren't as directional and are better at picking up sounds from farther away. 57's make excellent snare mics, though.
Some sound companies stick rigidly by the thin condensers with small diaphragms in the mistaken belief that they're only picking up cymbals (that may be the intention, but they get the whole kit and sound weak on the drums IMHO), but if you're trying to pick up a whole kit, you're better off getting a large diaphragm condenser because it'll have a beefier low end. I'm not really up on condenser mics these days, but several companies make good affordable ones. Might want to go on some drum sites and get opinions.
Some sound companies stick rigidly by the thin condensers with small diaphragms in the mistaken belief that they're only picking up cymbals (that may be the intention, but they get the whole kit and sound weak on the drums IMHO), but if you're trying to pick up a whole kit, you're better off getting a large diaphragm condenser because it'll have a beefier low end. I'm not really up on condenser mics these days, but several companies make good affordable ones. Might want to go on some drum sites and get opinions.
m audio pulsar II's are good for the money. 300 for a pair. extremely small and light. low profile.
cymbals dont need much volume support in a small bar. spot mics could work. you dont need to focus on the whole kit if everything else is spot miced. especially in an environment with bad acoustic properties.
with that said, i saw every band on the honda civic tour play with LDC's as overheads in the orlando house of blues.. so it very well CAN be done, i just think (and ive never mixed real live sound) you dont really need a real overhead.
cymbals dont need much volume support in a small bar. spot mics could work. you dont need to focus on the whole kit if everything else is spot miced. especially in an environment with bad acoustic properties.
with that said, i saw every band on the honda civic tour play with LDC's as overheads in the orlando house of blues.. so it very well CAN be done, i just think (and ive never mixed real live sound) you dont really need a real overhead.
Yeah, its all about the eq. When OH mics are being used as dedicated cymbol mics, then they are HPF'ed to the max, 400. When OH mics are being used as 2 of the 3 mics, then I use them as a full range device. Carfully placed at the intended tagets, in this case NOT the cymbols. You can get a great drum mix using this technique. Most of the time, I mic everything, and the optional would be the OH mics. Cymbols, especially in tight quarters will bleed through front line vocal mics just fine. Every sound person has their own technique. Some under cymbol, some over, some in places I never thought of before. Next time you got to a concert, try and look at the different micing techniques used. No two are the same.
Another Idea, would be to Y tom mics, to minimze channel useage. eq the channel to split the difference between the two mics. Under snare micing would be a soundary item. The best sound from a snare comes from the top IMO. The sizzle comes from the bottem, and then blended in with the top snare mic for a HI-FI' er sound. 57's are great snare mics, except they are too fragile, and get the caps knocked off too easy. I have abour 10 in that condition atm. I prefer an I-5, or a beta 57 as they are a far more robust mechanical design.
As for really cheap and durable condensors, I would go for the Audix F-15. Cheap, useable, and no body will steal them
are you high?
the 57 is the single toughest mic to ever be mass produced. so what if the top bit breaks.. it still works. the only time ive EVER heard about someone destroying a 57 is when he tried to record f16 take offs and put one a few feet from the burner. he melted it.
ive never seen a used 421 that didnt have stick dents in it from sloppy drummers who nail them on tom rolls. but they still work.
dynamic mics by definition are pretty tough. any mic made half well can take a beating. and if you have drummers knocking them off stuff, you need better drummers or lower profile mics, and im pretty sure shure makes a smaller 57.
It's a give and take like many other things. String height issues have to satisfy ease to play but also how the string can vibrate and sound on the other end. You can't give to Peter without taking from Paul. Drum ring is natural and good. Too much ring and it moves into technical problem territory. Back it off from there and find what works. It's tricky and time consuming, but it has to be done. If the resonating causes feedback just try to deal with that first. Have you gone over the monitoring? Does it still over-resonate with all the monitors off? It might be solved by changing the monitoring. Take drums out of the monitors, move his monitors, etc, one by one and something may suddenly stop being objectionable.
A good investment? I'd be getting the insane monitor-addicted drummer to pony up for drum mics, stands, and a powered 15" monitor.
I thought this was sounding familiar
Referring to the below 57 debate, one thing I feel certain about is that your 57 on the snare will get hit more often than his 57 on the snare would.
Referring to the below 57 debate, one thing I feel certain about is that your 57 on the snare will get hit more often than his 57 on the snare would.
Most of the time I do think that the ring cycles through the vocals mics, so I don't allow any drum into monitors unless somebody wants a little kick. I am more and more convinced I have too many mics for too few drums.
The mics and stands are his. I would buy the condensers just to have the proper equipment for the job.
LMAO, yeah, no I'm not high. They get destroyed by drummers all the time. In fact so much so, that we warn tour acts that if they knock the top off, they pay for it. The 57 is a great mic, but I prefer a mic you CAN bang on with no ill effects. The SM57 does not fall into that category. Once the caps are knocked off, its back to shure for a new/refurb one. They never sound the same again and are mechanically challanged from then on. Nothing worse than micing up a kit in front of an artist, and have the device (whatever it is) fall apart. Opps, wheres my gaff tape...LOL Like I said, I have a load of them ready to go back right now. I have about 20 in stock though. The Audix I-5, sounds fairly similar, and you can run a truck over those. The beta 57 has a replaceable screw on so if it gets dented, no big. All of our 421's except one is dented to hell. We only use those for bass, and horns usually anymore.
And no, The 57 is not the best dynamic mic mechaniclly in the world. If you think it is, you must not get out much.
i know what they are capable of. enough to know that i hate them on distorted guitars, and typically dont mind them on snare drums. ive seen them get hit.. a LOT. and ive never seen one break. maybe you need to get the thing a tad bit more vertical if you are positioning them so flat that you can actually HIT the cap. are they hanging over the center of the drum?
im not normally one to defend a 57 on anything BUT its durability.
im not normally one to defend a 57 on anything BUT its durability.
A picture is worth more than a few words
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/gshadoan/sm57s.jpg
This is not all of them, the last 6 months of use. Welcome to my world. 2 at home (my personal ones), and one more in the office, used to show damage for a settlement in the same condition. Thats 9 total. Now please try convince my im a dumbass, and its just me. It is THE one mic type we have issues like this with. Further, generally I have little to do with final mic placment. Thats the tour engineers job. Durable my ass. Tell me im high all you want. Do real sound, and then well talk.
Sure, you can use one with one act for years and never have these issues, alls Im trying to say (in a helpful manner) is that there are better mics for that purpose.
Use a 57 on snare all you want. Im just saying.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/gshadoan/sm57s.jpg
This is not all of them, the last 6 months of use. Welcome to my world. 2 at home (my personal ones), and one more in the office, used to show damage for a settlement in the same condition. Thats 9 total. Now please try convince my im a dumbass, and its just me. It is THE one mic type we have issues like this with. Further, generally I have little to do with final mic placment. Thats the tour engineers job. Durable my ass. Tell me im high all you want. Do real sound, and then well talk.
Sure, you can use one with one act for years and never have these issues, alls Im trying to say (in a helpful manner) is that there are better mics for that purpose.
Use a 57 on snare all you want. Im just saying.
There's two ways to go if they need to be mic'd:
- Close mic all drums and use gates on all channels to avoid feedback issues,
- BD + OH, eventually add a snare mic and one more OH
Close micing everything will give a sound with more power, but unless the venue and PA is rather big and you have a dedicated sound engineer, I rarely see a reason to close mic it all. It's asking for trouble. At least if the drummer is not tuning his drums for every gig (mine do, but he rarely mics them). How they're tuned makes a big difference, as already mentioned.
- Close mic all drums and use gates on all channels to avoid feedback issues,
- BD + OH, eventually add a snare mic and one more OH
Close micing everything will give a sound with more power, but unless the venue and PA is rather big and you have a dedicated sound engineer, I rarely see a reason to close mic it all. It's asking for trouble. At least if the drummer is not tuning his drums for every gig (mine do, but he rarely mics them). How they're tuned makes a big difference, as already mentioned.
