Double Bass Micing with a bass amp

[basscat35]

I have the fdeck preamp but didn`t notice a difference when I tried it with the RS mic. Sounds great right into my EA Doubler

 

[XSterling]

Do you know where I can buy a Fdeck's HPF Serires2?
I mailed him but haven't any reply...
Posted a new thread about that but it seems that nobody knows...

 

[Michael Eisenman]

Sometimes Fdeck gets busy; keep trying.

Here's his profile info: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/member.php?u=40185

 

[Bass68]

Thanks to this thread I went to my local Radio Shack and picked up this crappy (I mean this affectionately) little $32 mic. It sounds great! I played a gig here at the fancy new SF Jazz center, and I loved the sound, as well as at a noisy cafe in the Mission, then my regular church gig. I am wondering about some kind of pre-amp to boost the signal a bit; it is quieter than the Realist through my set up, but no big thing. It may just be that the sound is quite transparent. It's really surprising to get good sound from inside the f-hole. Goes against everything I thought I understood about mic-ing a bass. But it actually gets some bright tones. I find the Realist to have such a "boxy" sound, I'm relieved to find such a simple alternative. It will be interesting to see how many situations it works in.

Thanks Farmerdude and Mondobassman!

 

[Mandobassman]

It will be interesting to see how many situations it works in....

I would guess it all depends on the variety of gigs you do, but I have used it as my only source of amplification since I started using it and have had great results each time. Some nights are a little better than others, but I have NEVER had a night where I wished I had a pickup.

BTW, Farmerdude deserves all the credit. I just followed his recommendation and happily boasted about the results. It has been very exciting to see so many people have good sound with this cheap mic.

 

[wallawallabob]

Well, I've been following this thread for quite a while and heard so few complaints about the performance of this little mic I decided to get one myself.

I have been using a K&K without problems (I'm leaving it on the bass) through a K&K Pure preamp. For low volume, intimate settings it just didn't sound as good as it could. For loud situations, it sounds fine and doesn't feed-back much.

I am a pretty active player and like to attack, which just didn't come through too well on the peizo. I also use my bass like a drum for certain tunes and do some appropriate slap. The mic works surprisingly well for this.

I am still monkeying with mic positioning and amp settings (Genz Benz Shuttle), and other than some mild booming in a poor mic location (bass side top of the f-hole) it sounds VERY good.

I just got it last night so I haven't played in any venue but my living room yet. I haven't tried to push much in the way of volume, but I can already tell that the small venues are going to dig it!

 

[Mandobassman]

I had two gigs over the weekend that were very different in their setting but both needed lots of volume. The first was a outdoor party and there was lots of open space, but I was still a few feet from my amp. I was able to get a ton of volume with no feedback whatsoever.

The second gig, the next day was in a Country music club that I used to play in years ago. They like the music loud and I was very concerned about how the RS mic would fare indoors and needing a large amount of volume. It performed flawless. It was probably the best sound I've had yet. Loud, full, and punchy bass. I could not have been happier. This little inexpensive mic continues to amaze me each and every night.

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

I continue to follow this thread with interest but I've never been able to get even close to a usable amount of volume with this mic. Open D just takes off no matter how it's placed on the instrument and no matter which of my amps I use.

I'm glad so many others are finding success with this mic. I guess I'll use mine strictly for business presentations...as long I don't speak around the frequency of 73.4 Hz.

- Steve

 

[bassmanchu]

I know a few people have had positive results [with the Radio Shack tie-clip mic] for arco, but I'm interested in more extended feedback.

How is this mic for playing things like Broadway musicals, stage shows or live situations where the band is playing (bowed) off-stage (relying solely on the mic for sound to be pumped out to the audience)?

 

[Mandobassman]

I wish I could give you an answer about this, but I don't have any experience with it at all since I don't play arco.

 

[drurb]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Congrats to those who have achieved success with this little mic. At the outset, it's worth noting, once again, that there are certainly differing opinions among players with regard to what constitutes a good amplified sound.

It was entertaining to read the posts here and see the descriptions unfold in the manner I figured they would based on my experience and, well, physical acoustics. Now, it's always fun to experiment. For those of us who have for decades, and for many of us who wish to amplify the full spectral range of our instrument, the f-hole has proven to be one of the worst places to place a transducer. The reports here of "boomy" sound and loss of upper fundamentals and partials are consistent with that. Then there's the idea of placing the mic in front of the body (as is common when using more costly mics). That leaves the setup susceptible to feedback, especially when the pattern of the mic is omnidirectional. So, yes, it's only $32, but no real surprises. I was especially interested in engedi1's comparison of the mic with the Ehrlund because the Ehrlund is my pickup of choice. I went through my "mic period." I won't be going back any time soon.

So, what I see here is completely consistent with the store of knowledge regarding the use of mics. If and when you can get them to work, they can be great. Whether they "work" or not is very much dependent on your preferences for the sound of your bass amplified. It all comes back to that. Certainly, the RS mic is inexpensive enough to have fun trying. If you haven't played around with mics, it would probably be a good idea to grab one of the RS mics and learn for yourself. If you like what you hear, then go with it! Still, there is no magic.

 

[Mandobassman]

At the outset, it's worth noting, once again, that there are certainly differing opinions among players with regard to what constitutes a good amplified sound.

...the f-hole has proven to be one of the worst places to place a transducer.

...I went through my "mic period." I won't be going back any time soon.

...Certainly, the RS mic is inexpensive enough to have fun trying.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I always welcome varying opinions. I have always said since I started using this mic that it probably won't work for everyone. I have the feeling that your comment about "what constitutes a good amplified sound" is a bit of a dig, implying that if you are using this mic then you don't really know what good sound is. Quite the contrary here. I have a very good handle on what good bass tone is. I am extremely picky about sound, which is why I started asking questions about this in the first place. I have used both mics and pickups in the past, some good, some terrible. I have never used or heard a pickup that sounded as natural as a mic. Not being happy with my pickup sound, I started seeking a better way. I had used a very good mic in the past but it was a PITA to set up each time and I used it only in FOH. I wanted a mic sound but wanted it in my amp instead of the mixer. So I asked about that possibility because I didn't know how mics would match up going directly into my amp. The suggestion to use this RS mic surprised me as well as anyone, but the results for me have been fantastic.

It HAS been proven by many that the F hole is one of the worst places to place a mic. However, the reason it works with this mic is the frequency response only goes down to 50 Hz, which doesn't even reach the fundamental note on the E string. So the low end response is just weak enough to not be able to cause the boominess that better mics would create and the mic has very low sensitivity, which means that it has to be VERY close to the sound source to pick up anything. The result is that it captures the sound from the F hole and nothing else, including other instruments and feedback is much less of a problem then with more expensive mics.

I used a good mic going into the mixer for several years and was happy with the sound. Then I tried a few good pickups with a amp and was never happy with the sound. So, I've tried my "pickup period" and am not going back anytime soon.

The Radio Shack is more than just a fun experiment for me. It has given me the best stage sound I have ever had with any set up. My band mates love the sound. I have had several audience members, who are musicians, comment about how good the bass sounds and then almost fall off of their chairs when I tell them what it is I'm using.

Throughout the duration of this thread, I have read several people suggest staying away from this cheap little mic. As I said, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Maybe it didn't work for you. Maybe you haven't used it but can't believe something so cheap could work at all. But, for many, it works and works great. For me, it is the only thing I have used in the past 10 years that makes my bass sound like my bass and I am very grateful to have found it.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I also thought it might be two bad effects cancelling each other out, the resonance boom at the f-hole of the bass and the bad low frequency sensitivity of cheap electret microphone capsules (or their circuit design with external electronic components).

One reason why it might work with some instruments/RS-microphones might be (beyond the resonant frequency of the bass of course) that cheap microphone have bad quality control, so they may differ in frequency response. Sometimes parts even come from different manufacturers with different specifications.

But for the price it is worth a try.

I was mixed up in the beginning, but then I remembered my former recordings with electret microphones who lacked a lot of bass.
Even using my Oktava MC-012, which also lacks some bass (but not as much as the electrets I have tried), sounds less boomy without EQ (under the bridge) than better quality small membrane condenser microphones. If I won't have an old ATM-35 for live use, I would use the Oktava if I ever feel the need of a bass microphone under the bridge (using the rubber ring mounting method through the underlengths) for PA.

 

[drurb]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I always welcome varying opinions. I have always said since I started using this mic that it probably won't work for everyone. I have the feeling that your comment about "what constitutes a good amplified sound" is a bit of a dig, implying that if you are using this mic then you don't really know what good sound is.

Nope, not a dig. Please take my words at face value without inference regarding what I mean.

It HAS been proven by many that the F hole is one of the worst places to place a mic. However, the reason it works with this mic is the frequency response only goes down to 50 Hz, which doesn't even reach the fundamental note on the E string. So the low end response is just weak enough to not be able to cause the boominess that better mics would create and the mic has very low sensitivity, which means that it has to be VERY close to the sound source to pick up anything. The result is that it captures the sound from the F hole and nothing else, including other instruments and feedback is much less of a problem then with more expensive mics.

I don't think your reasoning is correct. Here's why:

1. The fundamental of the E is around 41 Hz. That's quoted quite often. It is, however, misleading. The spectral profile od the DB is such that the greatest power is in the second harmonic. So, when the E is played, it is 81 Hz that has the most power. Many pickup/amp/speaker combinations have responses that drop off above 41 Hz. It's more the rule than the exception.
2. The low-end response of the RS mic is spec'ed at 50 Hz. That spec, in and of itself, is almost meaningless as is any such spec that is unaccompanied by also specifying the number of dB down that the response is at that frequency. Regardless of how far down the response is at 50 Hz, it is not likely to be much lower at 41 Hz. The high-pass response is not a brick wall.
3. The characteristic "boominess" at the f-hole is not a result of frequencies anywhere near the region of 50 Hz. Rather, that is characteristic of a peak in the upper-bass/lower mid-range somewhere roughly in the octave between 150 and 300 Hz. So, the lack of response at 50 Hz and below is not what would tame boominess.

If lack of response below 50 Hz were really the explanation, then following a good quality mic. placed at the f-hole with a high-pass filter would do the trick every time. So, the explanation of why you don't find the sound to be "boomy" at the f-hole lies elsewhere. Note that some users did report finding the sound with the RS mic to be boomy. The inconsistent judgments could simply be related to mic/bass interactions and/or differences in preferences. That's not a judgment.

I used a good mic going into the mixer for several years and was happy with the sound. Then I tried a few good pickups with a amp and was never happy with the sound. So, I've tried my "pickup period" and am not going back anytime soon.

Well, good for you. As I said, each player must judge for him/herself.

The Radio Shack is more than just a fun experiment for me. It has given me the best stage sound I have ever had with any set up. My band mates love the sound. I have had several audience members, who are musicians, comment about how good the bass sounds and then almost fall off of their chairs when I tell them what it is I'm using.

Wonderful. You are happy, They are happy. I congratulated you and everyone else who found success with the RS mic.

Throughout the duration of this thread, I have read several people suggest staying away from this cheap little mic. As I said, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Maybe it didn't work for you. Maybe you haven't used it but can't believe something so cheap could work at all. But, for many, it works and works great. For me, it is the only thing I have used in the past 10 years that makes my bass sound like my bass and I am very grateful to have found it.

Congrats again. My point, in what I carefully wrote, is that there is no evidence that the RS mic does or would be expected to do anything fundamentally different than what is done by other mics. After reading every single post, the experiences are consistent with what would be expected. If it works for you, then great. Enjoy!

Finally, nothing beats a well-placed, quality microphone for capturing the sound of a DB or any instrument, for that matter. For recording, I don't know why anyone would choose a pickup over a mic. It's also true that no engineer worth his salt would stick such a mic in the f-hole. There's good reason for that. My comments above are restricted to live amplification settings under conditions such that feedback is a potential issue. Those are the conditions under which most of us amplify our DBs. In situations where the primary reinforcement is FOH and bleed-through from other instruments is not an issue, again, I'd take a well-place, high-quality mic every time. To each his own.

 

[Mandobassman]

Thanks for your feedback, pun intended. I appreciate and understand you comments. I don't have any idea why it works so well for me, but it does. I really think what makes it work straight into an amp with little or no feedback is because it has to be so close to the sound source. It doesn't pick up much of anything more than a few inches away from the mic. I tried a couple of more expensive mics in that same location and could not get any volume without feedback, but for some reason, the RS mic gives me plenty of volume and pretty darn good sound quality. I certainly know that I can get better quality sound from a better mic, but it is very difficult to get the volume needed from a amp directly behind me without feedback issues. The RS mic allows me to get the volume I need from my amp and still have a very good acoustic tone. The fact that is so cheap is just a bonus.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The technical data doesn't say much about the mic. DRURB knows this too. The 50Hz are not the 3 dB point, but much less. I made a-cappella choir recordings with electrets and even the bass voice on the recording has much less bass frequency than the original had. Often the capacitors nedded to decouple signal and FET power are too small, so the bass frequencies are weakend.

But as I said, the real technical data for a certain microphone on sale (even from the same production line) can vary widely on the cheap end. So some mics may have a weak frequency range in combination with the bass and mounting place, others an emphasized frequency range that can lead to feedback. The probability to get a microphone with a weakness that exactly fits the boominess of the bass at the mounting place of the mic is really low to non-existant. But a little weakness might not be a problem in real life, so theoretically it could work.

If it works it works. To a certain point I can understand DRURBs comment about the different tastes what players like as a nice double bass sound. I like them a bit clear and bright, not mumbling in the low frequencies only. I often find very dark amp settings when I play on a session bass over here and often I'm not allowed to change them even though the opener band has already done their work going to the session part. (I can hardly hear what I'm playing under these conditions...)

 

[drurb]

Hey, DoubleMIDI-- we agree!

Interesting... what seems to make it less susceptible to feedback than other mics is that the response seems to fall off very quickly with distance. farmerdude noted this as did engedi1:

What he said. If you pick one up and try speaking into it, it is really quiet unless you are practically swallowing it. Farmerdude, did you have any unusual boominess with yours?

 

[farmerdude]

Nice technical discussion as of late. Here is my Carroll County technical explanation...........All factors total a lump sum craptastic mic that eliminates some of the crap and brings out mores' of the tastic.




I'll get back on my tractor now.

 

[Mandobassman]

Nice technical discussion as of late. Here is my Carroll County technical explanation...........All factors total a lump sum craptastic mic that eliminates some of the crap and brings out mores' of the tastic.

Couldn't have said it better myself!!

 

[powerbass]

Well said!

Nice technical discussion as of late. Here is my Carroll County technical explanation...........All factors total a lump sum craptastic mic that eliminates some of the crap and brings out mores' of the tastic.




I'll get back on my tractor now.