Double Bass Microphone choices Live(again)Blending with PU through an amp

[BHBassman]

I have an AI Coda & would like to use both channels to blend my Underwood PU with a microphone, and am considering purchasing a good microphone, such as the DPA.
Also would like to use it with other amps & a PA.
Do not want a contact mic.
Used to use a Fishman Bass Blender with the microphone that came with it, but can't get it to work with my Coda.
(a "repairman" took it apart to see how it was wired...never worked right since!)
I've read the posted threads, and would like to know what seems to be working currently for bassists playing live gigs through their amps, blending a PU, feedback issues in louder situations, ( Big Bands) being able to remove the microphone & use on another bass, etc.
Curious about the DPA, Troll, AT, AMT, etc...
No bassist uses a microphone in my area, but I love the quality, esp. blending with my PU.
Thanks.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've tried the DPA and AMT plus a number of mics in the H clamp and between the bridge feet. I don't blend live anymore, but have written a series of articles for Bass Gear magazine detailing my experiences with blending live through an amplification rig centered around an AI Focus amp. They can be found on Link Removed page Good luck!

 

[BHBassman]

Thanks Chris-Great page.
I'll check it out.
What do you use currently, or is that on the page?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

My conclusion is that most of the time I lean on the amp playing far too loud for a mic to be useful as part of my stage sound. I'm either dealing with decent sound riding the edge of feedback, resigning myself to gutted mids or running out of time and turning the thing off running the pickup only. The rig that's worked best so far is a Headway EDB-2 preamp and a DPA 4099b. The pickup is a Krivo but that doesn't matter a lot since the mic and preamp are the weak links in the system. While I wasn't happy with the ATM or any dynamic mic the real stumbling block for me has been a preamp. Everything I've tried (Raven Labs, D-TAR Solstice, EDB-2 sometimes with various other preamps in front of one channel) has been a compromise of functionality against cost. The only one that seems to have everything I'd need to effectively blend a mic and p.up is the Grace Design Felix which I have yet to try. The main thing that separates it from the rest is two channels with full parametric EQ and separate DI sends to FOH. It seems like a lot of money but for what it seems to do it's not.

I think the people finding success with a mic through an amp are playing pretty quiet. If just needed to add to the acoustic volume of the instrument rather than utterly eclipse it a mic would be the way I'd go. I hate to give general nay-saying advice but in this case I will: if you play loud enough that you can't hear your bass acoustically forget a mic. That said the DPA is a great mic that I keep installed on my bass to send to FOH. I haven't read all Chris's articles (I plan to today at work!) but I'd be surprised if he wasn't saying much of what I am.

 

[BHBassman]

Thanks for the reply.
Coincidentally, I also read talkbass forums at work, esp. during meetings!
I've used a few microphones, including the DPA when I played in an orchestra for the Zjosh Grobin show ( couldn't hear the results, of course).
A Crown mic came with the Fishmen Pocket Blender, but doesn't work now, when it was taken apart by a curious repairman, unless it's with the Blender.
Moved on since.
Plan on reading these articles, and doing plenty of research before buying.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks Chris-Great page.
I'll check it out.
What do you use currently, or is that on the page?

Currently no mic. Just Fishman Full Circle-->PJB Super Flightcase with a HPfilter in the FX loop. I think the key in my case is that my acoustic sound is very "direct" already in that it comes from a medium highish setup (7-10mm, G-E) with stiff and/or high tension strings. With the PJB EQ set flat, it sounds like a louder version of my basic sound with no midrange wonkiness.

When I did blend with a mic, I had the best luck by emulating a PA system and putting the speaker up on a pole. I was able to get pretty good volume this way from the mic, and was happy with the sound. Once I discovered the PJB combo, the sound was so good to my ears for what I was after that there didn't seem any point to the mic anymore, especially as I was getting older and the schlep of the pole mounted system was a drag.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I had the best luck by emulating a PA system and putting the speaker up on a pole. I was able to get pretty good volume this way from the mic, and was happy with the sound. Once I discovered the PJB combo, the sound was so good to my ears for what I was after that there didn't seem any point to the mic anymore, especially as I was getting older and the schlep of the pole mounted system was a drag.

Right I forgot to mention the pole. Getting the speaker up above the body of the bass raises the feedback threshold quite noticeably. I'm still doing it even with just a pickup because.....well mostly out of habit now I guess. It is one more thing to haul around......hmm.

 

[Ric Vice]

[QUOTE="Jeff Bonny, post: 18907049, member: 221450" The only one that seems to have everything I'd need to effectively blend a mic and p.up is the Grace Design Felix which I have yet to try. The main thing that separates it from the rest is two channels with full parametric EQ and separate DI sends to FOH. It seems like a lot of money but for what it seems to do it's not.]

That has certianly been my experience. Admitedly, the Grace Felix is pricey, I resisted getting one, until my Headway EDB-2 went down and decided to move on to something else. It was a tough decision, because I loved the form factor of the Headway and it's
features. Putting the High Pass Filter as the second control in the EQ section is just so useful. You dial in the right low end response, before you EQ the different frequency bands.

I think the people finding success with a mic through an amp are playing pretty quiet. If just needed to add to the acoustic volume of the instrument rather than utterly eclipse it a mic would be the way I'd go. I hate to give general nay-saying advice but in this case I will: if you play loud enough that you can't hear your bass acoustically forget a mic. That said the DPA is a great mic that I keep installed on my bass to send to FOH. I haven't read all Chris's articles (I plan to today at work!) but I'd be surprised if he wasn't saying much of what I am.[/QUOTE]

The DPA is my go to Mic for FOH, but it works very well in a blended setup with a pickup, into the Felix, primarily because it supplys 48 volts to the phantom, which is what the 4099 was designed for.

Ric

 

[BHBassman]

Appreciate the replies.
Read your articles Chris-Great page!
I'm fully aware of Bass Amplification with PUs, EQs, preamps, Mic alone & blended, in & out of a studio & live, with a variety of amps in a wide variety of settings & venues-amp on & off the floor.
Just would like to get that air & " true & natural " bass tone, while not sounding electric, trebly, middy or boomy.
I use EPs & do get a round, full & dark sound- close, but not exactly natural.
Want to avoid feedback with a mic- been there, done that.
Just played (subbed) a Big Band & had to put my Markbass 2 10" speaker cab up on a bench because of the setup-Usually on the raised wood stage floor, like the regular bassist.
Lots of compliments on the sound & volume, esp. from the trombone section.
However, some regulars told me that my sound wasn't as loud & full as in the past, or as bassy. (lacked the stage floor resonance )
Seem to be leaning towards the DPA 4099, based on a few YouTube clips & articles from users.
Anyone use the DPA?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Lots of compliments on the sound & volume, esp. from the trombone section.

Compliments from the trombones. I can honestly say you're one up on me there.

 

[BHBassman]

Yep! Apparently they've had it very bass-heavy as of late.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

...would like to get that air & " true & natural " bass tone, while not sounding electric, trebly, middy or boomy.
I use EPs & do get a round, full & dark sound- close, but not exactly natural.
Want to avoid feedback with a mic- been there, done that.

If a person wanted to be really super OCD about it and didn't mind a bit of a schlep, the best rig would basically be a small combo of choice on the floor to carry the P/U signal, then a small powered speaker on a stand to carry the mic signal. A blending unit like the Grace Felix or the like could be used to route and EQ the signals to each component. But this is kind of like carrying an amp and a quasi-PA to the gig, and I would think it would get old pretty quick.

The biggest mitigating factor for me that led me down the "pickup-only" path is what I think of as the Futz Factor (ff). Back when I was blending, in some situations I ended up with the bliss of having the best possible sound for the gig, and was in heaven once the playing began; this was especially true of steady gigs and "2 nighters" where I could leave the rig set up. But there were other situations where the space was difficult to dial in, and in those rooms trying to futz with the sound was a distraction from the music making, which made me feel foolish in a "I just missed the forest for the trees" kind of way. This is the aspect of blending and dealing with stage mics that I don't miss at all.

 

[rickwolff]

After doing my MS (major schlep) and 1/2 hour setup I had a very nice sound on the duo gig last night (sound clips on the Ischell Mic thread).

But then another bass player friend came in and I asked him to sit in. He is notorious for just wanting to play acoustically (sansamp) and asked me to just 'pull the plug' for his tunes.

Granted it was a quiet gig - but he sounded great and I heard every note. My lower action and steel strings (vs his high action gut strings) made it a bit of a challenge but he did fine.

Really got me to wondering about maybe setting up my 'second' bass as a no-amp acoustic instrument.

So, what are the loudest 'GUT-LIKE' strings I could put on it that wouldn't cost me what guts would????

 

[BHBassman]

Hi Rick: Been there with the quiet gigs & playing acoustic, or almost.
Don't want to get tendentious, esp. playing with louder instruments in order to cut through & hear myself. We've all been there!
Also, trying different amps, cabs, etc., on gigs.
Love the acoustic sound! There's a hallway in my house.....!
Was considering Guts also, but do not wish to deal with weather issues.
Also, don't wish to have my strings up as high, esp.for solos in thumb position.
Played Galugaleckies on another bassist's old Kay - Great!
Also have had other players sit in on my bass with chops, that made my bass sound much stronger to me sitting in front. ( hope I sound that way...)
Obviously, depends on the setting, venue, etc. etc........
I've experimented with a variety of strings also. Used the usual contenders that bow & Pizz well: Spirocore, D'Addario Heliocore, Flexocore, Pirastro Olivs (great! -but the E string snapped at the nut -didn't know it should have been widened.), Eudoxa, and was thinking of trying the Chordas.
Have Zyex on my 1940 Kay-Big sound. Twangy at first, but they are starting to mellow. High action on that bass- the neck was pinned also before I found & bought the bass.
Kaplan Heavy on my 7/8 Orchestra Bass, EPs on my American Standard. Great!

True- Never ending quest for the sound!
Love the Bass sound in the studio, which sparked my interest for a microphone again.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

So, what are the loudest 'GUT-LIKE' strings I could put on it that wouldn't cost me what guts would????

The loudest my bass ever got was with Evah Regulars and Velvet Blues. Don't know how gut-like they are, but...

 

[BassinCT]

I've tried the DPA and AMT plus a number of mics in the H clamp and between the bridge feet. I don't blend live anymore, but have written a series of articles for Bass Gear magazine detailing my experiences with blending live through an amplification rig centered around an AI Focus amp. They can be found on Link Removed page Good luck!

Chris- thanks for posting the link! I skimmed over the article initially, as I had little interest in mics at the time. But, things have since changed for me.

I typically use a bridge wing mounted pu and it works great for when solid, loud and punchy fits the music, but recent live experiences with microphones (through FOH only) really grabbed my attention. I loved the sound! First, with a jazz combo on stage using... an SM57, then with an Irish/celtic band using an AKG C214, then a AT Pro45 in a pit. Each one of these mics was placed differently and probably had different levels of sound sources bleeding into the FOH channel. The things that each gig had in common were that the overall volume was medium-low, no monitor... and every time, it sounded great from my perspective and there wasn't any feedback issue.

Lately, I have wanted to experiment with mics going through an AI Clarus head or into a Grace pre-> my amp before committing to a purchase. I do value hearing about other peoples' experiences with mics, so please keep them coming... particularly if you use one through an amp or nearby monitor.