Miking cabs in the studio

[nothumb]

i never said it's pointless to mic cabs; in fact i mic my cab 100% of the time i play live with FOH support. but the idea that it always has to be done, that it's WHY I DON'T HAVE A GRAMMY (lol) is just as stupid. all i'm saying is there's no need to pull rank and call anyone who goes direct an amateur; great recordings have been achieved in a variety of ways. nobody is talking about the difference between a MIDI orchestra and the boston pops (the fact that you would jump from a question of DI vs mic'd to that is a total straw man); i'm talking about the many genres of contemporary music where people are using different methods with different aims.

if i'm supposed to be 'learning something,' then, again, why not post a recording instead of spouting platitudes. then, yes, i might learn something.

 

[deaf pea]

..."REAL MUSICIANS... ACOUSTIC INSTRUMENTS..." blah blah it's the same sort of sky-is-falling, faux old-school purism that everyone was throwing around when all the analog guys crapped themselves in fear of pro tools. technology changes...

FWIW, I have used Pro-Tools (and it's predecessor, Sound Tools) for more than 15 of the 39+ years that I've worked in professional recording studios . . .

I DO know that "technology changes", and I welcome the advances . . . but I use my ears to judge ANY technique . . . and I don't forget about the analog tools that work, too!

 

[JimmyM]

i never said it's pointless to mic cabs; in fact i mic my cab 100% of the time i play live with FOH support. but the idea that it always has to be done, that it's WHY I DON'T HAVE A GRAMMY (lol) is just as stupid. all i'm saying is there's no need to pull rank and call anyone who goes direct an amateur; great recordings have been achieved in a variety of ways.

Wow, way to totally misread what was said all the way around.

 

[nothumb]

Wow, way to totally misread what was said all the way around.

let me refresh your memory.

If you tell me you'd rather have a sampled orchestra than a real orchestra on a recording, I'd tell you why you don't have any Grammys.

Sounds to ME like a lazy and/or inexperienced engineer . . . IME . . .

Well, I guess you don't have a lot of experience then . . . or, more likely, haven't worked with highly experienced, PROFESSIONAL engineers . . .

Don't worry about the Grammys . . . I rarely talk about them EXCEPT when responding to what I consider to be "un-informed" opinions of an 18-year-old kid . . .

so if that's not pulling rank and calling people amateurs because they have a differing opinion, please enlighten me.

and again, all i said is, why not post some examples so we can all learn something from you PROS since you are so anxious to remind us that's what you are.

 

[deaf pea]

...insisting on a particular method of recording is putting the cart before the horse.

I NEVER said that I insisted on using "a particular method of recording" . . . as a matter of fact, I try to use ALL of the available options, all the time . . .

For example, I've found that it helps the final sound of the CD if I record a live string section to 2" tape first, and then immediately record it into ProTools HD for mixing and further processing . . .

Another example . . . when I recorded the most recent CD by my band, Haragan y Compania, I used an EV RE-20 on my PR410 clean cab, a Sennheiser 604 on my distorted cab, a Countryman DI off the bass and also the DI out of the clean SVT3-PRO . . . then I mixed all of them . . . or, some of them . . . to suit each of the songs . . .

YMMV


.

 

[deaf pea]

nothumb, WHO said

"If you tell me you'd rather have a sampled orchestra than a real orchestra on a recording, I'd tell you why you don't have any Grammys."

It wasn't me . . .

but I DID say everything else that you quoted . . .

And I don't feel that it's "pulling rank and calling people amateurs" to say the things that I have said in this thread . . .

I'm not talking about "differing opinion"s . . . I'm refering to UN-INFORMED opinions . . . "opinions" without the luxury of the experience necessary to gain such "opinions"


EDIT: There's nothing WRONG with being inexperienced . . . that'll usually work itself out with time . . .
And my comment to grifff about working "with highly experienced, PROFESSIONAL engineers" was in response to his comment that
"...Every studio I have recorded in used the sound from the DI signal..." as opposed to micing AND DIing


Now, GET OFF'A MY LAWN, YOU WHIPPERSNAPPERS!


.

 

[JimmyM]

nothumb, WHO said

"If you tell me you'd rather have a sampled orchestra than a real orchestra on a recording, I'd tell you why you don't have any Grammys."

It wasn't me . . .

Right, and I still stand behind it. But it got turned into "If you'd rather DI than use a mic on a bass cab, that's why you don't have a Grammy." Which is a whole different thing than "If you tell me you'd rather have a sampled orchestra than a real orchestra on a recording, I'd tell you why you don't have any Grammys." Who in their right mind wouldn't prefer a real orchestra to samples? Anyone who says they wouldn't prefer the orchestra doesn't deserve a Grammy. I was checking out some of the stuff Deaf Pea did with Vicente Fernandez, and they used real strings, and the recording and overall vibe of the music is much better for it.

 

[sonic assassin]

not picking a fight, i havent read the thread, and i could agree with you 100% on all subjects. i dont disrespect your work or what you have accomplished, but throwing around the fact that you have won grammys should be the way you demand respect.

**** the grammys. what people vote to be good music does not reflect your talent as an engineer. i had an instructor who did the same thing. despite being about 20 years behind the times, opinionated, short tempered and being very much burnt out on drugs, insisted that he was right, everyone (including his coworkers) was wrong, and backed this up with his latin grammys.

i was stupid because i wanted to reamp with a bass amp. he plugged it into the outlets that we were told not to use for amps because they werent grounded (or something), flipped both the power and standby on (on an ampeg b15), and then insulted me all the way back to the control room.

this went on for days until i gave him a piece of my mind and then was thrown out of the class.

your work as an engineer can hardly be judged by how many albums you sold in the pop market. no one could have screwed up a mix like hey there delilah. its impossible. if that was recorded on a fostex mr8 (the red one) through a single 57 it would have been a hit (and people would have commended them for being lo-fi and hip).

judge your success by the amount of work you get because of your methods and your product.

with that said.. i only take the DI when i have the inputs, and always mute it. i only take it in the event that theres a problem with the amp or theres a noise in the room. in a live open air recording, i take a DI so theres less noise to worry about. otherwise, that sound disgusts me and i only take it as an emergency. same with electric acoustic guitars.

 

[JimmyM]

Sorry SA, but that ain't how the music business works. Sales and awards count for a lot. Success begets opportunities for more success. It isn't the only criteria but it's an important one as far as people who might hire you go.

 

[sonic assassin]

Sorry SA, but that ain't how the music business works. Sales and awards count for a lot. Success begets opportunities for more success. It isn't the only criteria but it's an important one as far as people who might hire you go.

im not talking about the music business. im talking about ones clout as an engineer. not everyone has to win the world series to know they are a good baseball player. they didnt sign with the yankees and it wasnt a sure thing.

sales are one thing.. pointless awards that someone likely was paid to rig.. who cares about the stupid trophy.

not that its bad to work with artists that could be engineered by a chimp. thats easy money. but i wouldnt take it to heart that the song that mixed itself won you some stupid award.

look at brian mcternan. he recorded the first commercial thrice record in his house. the next one made a TON of money. no BS grammys.. but plenty of return business. hes been busy putting out pretty good albums since then. hes a good engineer.

 

[Hoover]

Sounds to ME like a lazy and/or inexperienced engineer . . . IME

This.

My "day job" for 20 years was as a recording & live sound engineer. Anyone who tells you miking a bass cab is "pointless" is just doing it wrong.

 

[jmac]

I should get more into the Latin scene around here. It's pretty poppin' in Fla, and they don't seem to discriminate over age. And I've seen more than one gringo doing it. Besides, I look close enough to pass

I don't know, Jimmy. I don't think they'd dig your devo hat. lol.

 

[RexNFX79]

Well I was back in the studio Friday working on the project. We listened to some of the tracks now that some of the mixing has been done. The bass tracks don't sound bad but I still think they could have been better if we would have miked my cab. The guy that's engineering this is one of those know it all types and is hard to talk to when you're questioning his methods. After seeing him make a couple of other decisions, I've come to the conclusion that he's just lazy when it comes to certain things and tries to make up a valid excuse not to do something he doesn't want to do, for example, "miking bass cabs is a waste of time". It's not my project and I was asked to come in and lay down the bass tracks for these guys, so I'm just keeping my mouth shut and not kicking up a fuss. I definitely think that we are dealing with a lazy engineer though.

 

[scottbass]

It's not my project and I was asked to come in and lay down the bass tracks for these guys, so I'm just keeping my mouth shut and not kicking up a fuss.

You said the right thing! It's NOT your project. The person who should be taking your input and the engineer's input and making the decisions such as whether to mic a cab is the producer. The engineer should be taking his work direction from the producer, as should you. You should be providing the input to the producer. IME it is definitely sub-optimal to have the engineer serve as the chief decision-maker - the producer - during the recording process. Unless, of course, it's a one-person project!

 

[RexNFX79]

You said the right thing! It's NOT your project. The person who should be taking your input and the engineer's input and making the decisions such as whether to mic a cab is the producer. The engineer should be taking his work direction from the producer, as should you. You should be providing the input to the producer. IME it is definitely sub-optimal to have the engineer serve as the chief decision-maker - the producer - during the recording process. Unless, of course, it's a one-person project!

The producer is basically the engineer and the songwriters.

 

[sloasdaylight]

I guess you didn't check my profile . . . As a multiple Grammy Award-winning recording engineer with almost 40 years experience, I CAN most definitely hear . . . and FEEL . . . the difference between a well-miked cab and WHATEVER cheap-a** . . . OR expensive . . . plug-in (or pedal) you might "recommend". . .

.

Good thing the 15 year old kids who are going to be buying your records aren't grammy award winning recording engineers with nearly 40 years worth of experience to hear what is a simulated amp and head right?

 

[deaf pea]

Good thing the 15 year old kids who are going to be buying your records aren't grammy award winning recording engineers with nearly 40 years worth of experience to hear what is a simulated amp and head right?

Huh?

Whatcha' talkin' 'bout?

The people who buy the CD's that are the product of our "team" ARE impressed with the "honesty" of the music . . .

Excuse me, I've got to go now to get ready for the 4-piece horn section that's gonna' be here in a couple'a hours . . .

 

[sloasdaylight]

My point, which you're either intentionally missing or purposely missing, is that the majority of the people who will be buying your (of course using the impersonal you here) albums (the 15 year olds) will not be able to tell the difference between a bass line recorded DI and through a bass rig, as opposed to a bass line recorded DI, and processed through a good modeling software.

Of course though we're not all people with 40 years of recording experience, so please, pull rank some more.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

Well I was back in the studio Friday working on the project. We listened to some of the tracks now that some of the mixing has been done. The bass tracks don't sound bad but I still think they could have been better if we would have miked my cab. The guy that's engineering this is one of those know it all types and is hard to talk to when you're questioning his methods. After seeing him make a couple of other decisions, I've come to the conclusion that he's just lazy when it comes to certain things and tries to make up a valid excuse not to do something he doesn't want to do, for example, "miking bass cabs is a waste of time". It's not my project and I was asked to come in and lay down the bass tracks for these guys, so I'm just keeping my mouth shut and not kicking up a fuss. I definitely think that we are dealing with a lazy engineer though.

sounds like it's time to show up with your rig and a re-amp box...
you can still get your rig in the mix with persistence...

 

[deaf pea]

My point, which you're either intentionally missing or purposely missing...

Huh? . . . Which is it? "intentionally missing"? . . . or "purposely missing"? . . .

My point...is that the majority of the people who will be buying your (of course using the impersonal you here) albums (the 15 year olds) will not be able to tell the difference between a bass line recorded DI and through a bass rig, as opposed to a bass line recorded DI, and processed through a good modeling software...

The sub-group you mention ("the 15 year olds") admittedly don't have the critical listening skills, especially if they're listening to low-bit-rate mp3's . . .

but it seems TO ME (IMO), that you're missing MY point . . .

I take a lot of pride in my work . . . it matters TO ME the quality of the sound in the CD's that we release to the public . . .

...Of course though we're not all people with 40 years of recording experience, so please, pull rank some more.

I'm NOT "pulling rank" . . . you don't seem to appreciate the fact that I (and other industry professionals with credentials/experience) am willing to share that experience with other, less-experienced TBers . . .