Minor 6 question

[Stick_Player]

No IV minor is NOT exclusive to the minor. It is actually very common in classical and today, every pop ballads has that chord in it. Check this out in the key of G Major:

G- C - C min6- G

Now put a F bass to the Cmin6 and you'll get a F9 (bVII9) that resolves nicely to the G Major.

As for the bVII13 (#11), I said that the scale that fits the xmin6 chord is the melodic minor. So on the F9 functioning as bVII7 spell out the chord and its extensions: F- A -C -Eb- G - B- D. You'll notice that the upper structure of the chord is the same as the chord it resolves to. And plus it fits the whole C minor melodic scale place in thirds.

As for the Bb7 in Lady Bird, you can play it in 2 ways:
1) as a V7 in the key of Eb because of its iim7 just before that form a strong Eb Major chords sequence or

2) Bring that lydian dominant sound (bVII 13(#11) by playing
F melodic minor.

Notice the scales here in bar 3 and 4 if you use the dominant lydian:
F Dorian and then F minor melodic. There is only one note that changes: Eb to E. That's all! Any common tones between the 2 scales are great notes to play over those 2 bars.

So don't do like some people here and try it out instead of doubting this info ;-)

This has given me a headache.

 

[Snarf]

Hey guys, I was talking with a friend today about music theory and different chord construction and a question came up that neither of us had a good answer for. Here is what we were wondering.

We both understood a minor 6 chord to be root, minor third 5 and major 6.

So then what is a chord that has a minor third and a minor 6?
We kind of thought of a minor augmented chord but weren't sure if that was a thing. Is it even possible to have an augmented chord with a minor third? What if it also had a perfect 5th (not that that would necessarily sound the best)


Or is this chord usually thought of as an inversion of a different chord? Or is there a totally different answer to this?

Sorry for the rambling this question was really bugging me. If anyone knows the answer to this I would really appreciate it.

Have not read the thread.

You wouldn't have a b6 right after the 5th usually. Much, much more common to see a b13 tension instead, because the distance between those two notes will alleviate the dissonance. You don't see a -7b13 chord that often, because the b6/b13 usually sounds more like a I/3 than a VI chord.

 

[Stick_Player]

I'm really not sorry for you pal,

But if you take the time to study it, you might learn something new and useful.

And I ask you once again to stop harassing my (helpful) posts, please.

Pal? Useful? Helpful?

Pass the Excedrin Extra-Strength - Please!

Groovy, I have really tried to understand your posts. I often read and reread to absolutely no clear understanding. They are so jumbled, filled with this mode and that mode, inconsistent labeling, jumping all over, misinformation, wackiness, etc. By the time anyone tries to think this way, the tune is over and they've ended up with a migraine.

Explain this>

Groove Master says: "Notice the scales here in bar 3 and 4 if you use the dominant lydian: F Dorian and then F minor melodic. There is only one note that changes: Eb to E. That's all! Any common tones between the 2 scales are great notes to play over those 2 bars."

What? If you think, for a moment, that Tadd Dameron was thinking this way, you are from Pluto.

The confusing assigning of a different Scale/Mode to every single chord is bunk. It disinforms/misinforms young players into a lost confusion.

Furthermore, you have such a problem with being challenged.

A iv7 chord progressing to the bVII7 chord, which then resolves to the I chord is simply a substitution for the good ol' ii-V-I. This progression is commonly called a Backdoor ii-V or Backdoor Turnaround. Nothing new here. The standard repertoire is laden with them. Probably utilized more often than the Tritone Substitution.

 

[Stick_Player]

I do know my stuff really, really well.

Do you? I don't think so.

I'm here to answer some questions and I try to do it to the best of my knowledge and experience.

I've already asked you to explain this confusing statement. Do you want to give it a try?

Groove Master says: "Notice the scales here in bar 3 and 4 if you use the dominant lydian: F Dorian and then F minor melodic. There is only one note that changes: Eb to E. That's all! Any common tones between the 2 scales are great notes to play over those 2 bars."

Just check my sig in case you still wonder what I do for a living.

Your sig? We've all read it. Next.

 

[MarkMgibson]

I thought it a very simple question. Simple questions should be answered simply, IMO. No disrespect intended, but what do modes have to do with this question? I don't understand why people overcomplicate things which aren't complicated in the first place. We're talking a 4 note chord here, aren't we?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

It seems we have moved into debating alternate uses rather than simple construction terms, this will always be a bit contentious as it is based on experience.
Stick Player and Groove Master are saying the same thing, but on a different level or from a different approach....so the relevant experience will be needed help understand each point.....or it will indeed end in a "headache".

Here is how I view it as this is how I learned it.
Construction.
There are two common ways to construct a 6th.
Play any trad and add a 6th, this is a 6th chord through the addition of a 6th.
So if the triad is minor it is a minor 6th, if the triad is major it is a major 6th.

Or it can be inclusive of a triad by alteration of intervals, because any triad in first inversion has its interval order changed there is no need to add a 6th, the 6th happens naturally.

Function.
Now we get into function, was the 6th the result of an altered interval or the addition of an extra note?
This can take us into extensions, and uses of double flat/sharp functions, which really needs a solid foundation if any player/student wants to get to grips with it.
So the use of a sharp, flat, or natural was used or a new note added.
How does the note truly function and in what context is it a 6th (as opposed to a #5 or b6 or bb7?
Because of the limitations of a bass guitar fretboard we can forget the 2nd, 4th, and 6th are the same notes as the 9th, 11th, and 13th.
In music there relation to a C scale means those three notes are D, F, and A...they occur between 6-8 times in music, but we do not keep multiplying the chords function.
Adding a D four octaves up does not become C31, it's function is related to two octaves of any of the four common clefs used, Treble, Bass, Alto and Tenor. (there are sub-divisions within there's clefs, but that is function and another use entirely, if any of the fours use is not understood then it is pointless to move to any of the sub-divisions)

As I was taught it is a simple two way construction, a few lines to write out to explain it, although I have done it in one short line;
Add a 6th to any triad, or put any triad in first inversion.

But books and books can be written on there use and functions, naming and re-naming, but in all that is the beauty of music....what one persons sees and hears in it is not always the same as another.

 

[Groove Master]

I thought it a very simple question. Simple questions should be answered simply, IMO. No disrespect intended, but what do modes have to do with this question? I don't understand why people overcomplicate things which aren't complicated in the first place. We're talking a 4 note chord here, aren't we?

Well this stupid debate didn't come from me as I was answering a sub-question from a member who did understand my explanation about the minor 6 chord been transformed into a dominant chord by changing the root. I did explain that new dominant is actually a dominant lydian chord used most of the time as bVII7. That's all.
Someone is doubting to his death this very basic concept found in all good jazz book btw.

 

[Febs]

Stick Player and Groove Master:

Would you PLEASE put each other on ignore so we don't have to keep reading your bickering every time someone asks a simple question?

 

[Pacman]

It's time to knock this off. Stick and Groove. You're on notice: leave each other alone, or you'll both be gone.