Double Bass Minor ii V i

[jweiss]

Tom, if you don't mind me chiming in - there's a text out there written by Mark Levine called The Jazz Theory Book. Very in depth, with a great section on melodic minor harmony. It was a key to unlocking some understanding of minor ii-V-i progressions for me.

Yep, and the stuff I presented above about the melodic minor scales that correspond to the ii-V-i chords is covered nicely.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks Chris. If you don't mind, one more: I realize that the flatted 6th doesn't sound the way we typically expect a "last" chord to sound and it's customary to use the Natural 6th instead. Have you ever come across a "theoretical" reason that explains why we use the flatted 6th in the ii V but abandon it for the tonic? Other than "it sounds better"?

Actually, most minor TPA melodies use the b6 in their construction when they use the 6th, and even some standard jazz tunes like "Sugar" and "Song For My Father" use the b6 as an upper neighbor to 5 over the tonic chord. I don't even think of it as an "avoid note" over a i chord, but more as a tendency tone or upper neighbor to the 5th. Most improvisors avoid it during the blowing, but there are plenty of exceptions that can be found.

On the technical side of your question, the b6 is a chord tone of both iiØ and V7b9, but not of i-, so it would make sense that it's sort of an imperative choice for the ii-V but only an option for the i.

 

[Tom Lane]

Tom, if you don't mind me chiming in - there's a text out there written by Mark Levine called The Jazz Theory Book. Very in depth, with a great section on melodic minor harmony. It was a key to unlocking some understanding of minor ii-V-i progressions for me.

That's a great suggestion, thanks! I already have the book, and that's just the kick I needed to continue going through it!

 

[Tom Lane]

Actually, most minor TPA melodies use the b6 in their construction when they use the 6th, and even some standard jazz tunes like "Sugar" and "Song For My Father" use the b6 as an upper neighbor to 5 over the tonic chord. I don't even think of it as an "avoid note" over a i chord, but more as a tendency tone or upper neighbor to the 5th. Most improvisors avoid it during the blowing, but there are plenty of exceptions that can be found.

On the technical side of your question, the b6 is a chord tone of both iiØ and V7b9, but not of i-, so it would make sense that it's sort of an imperative choice for the ii-V but only an option for the i.

That makes sense, thanks. Always wondered.

 

[Bass_Machine]

Just another way to look at things:

Each of the chords in the minor ii-V-i progression (in C, Dm7b5, G7alt, Cm) has a corresponding mode from a melodic minor scale. The Cm is very often played as Cm6/9.

A common scale to play over Dm7b5 (D F Ab C) in a minor ii-V-i is Locrian #2, D E F G Ab B C D (R 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 R). This is the 6th mode of F melodic minor.

For G7alt or G7#5#9 (G B D# F A#), the corresponding scale is G Altered Dominant, G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G (R b2 #2 3 #4 #5 b7 R). This is the 7th mode of Ab melodic minor.

For Cm6/9, the corresponding scale is C melodic minor, C D Eb F G A B C (R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6 7 R).

For soloing, two possible approaches are:

D Locrian #2 -> G Altered Dominant -> C Melodic Minor

or

F Melodic Minor -> Ab Melodic Minor -> C Melodic Minor

The latter approach can be rewritten:

Over the ii7(b5) chord, use a melodic minor scale up a minor third from the root of the ii chord or a 5th from the root of the i chord. So Dm7b5 = F melodic minor

Over the V7alt chord, use a melodic minor scale up a half-step from the root of the V chord or a b6th from the root of the i chord. So G7alt = Ab melodic minor.

Over the i6/9, use the melodic minor scale based on the root of the i chord. So Cmin69 = C melodic minor.

Another option for the minor ii-V-i is to just think F melodic minor over both ii and V, giving you locrian natural 9 over the ii and a cool susb9 sound over the V (f mel min over G is b7 R b9 #9 11 5 13 ). Or you can think of it as reharming ii V to just ii.

Similarly, you can think of just Valt (Ab mel min) over the whole thing instead of ii-V.

I feel that ergonomics (both physical and mental) can sometimes trump dogmatically "correct" note choices, especially on a cumbersome instrument like DB.

For example, I was once shown the possibility of playing a Bbalt sound over F#-7 B7 | F-7 Bb7 when the changes are whipping by e.g. when used 2 beats per chord as an alternative to F-7 | Bb7 one bar each. Really blew my little chord-scale worldview apart

 

[Tom Lane]

Tom, if you don't mind me chiming in - there's a text out there written by Mark Levine called The Jazz Theory Book. Very in depth, with a great section on melodic minor harmony. It was a key to unlocking some understanding of minor ii-V-i progressions for me.

Thanks again for recommending Levine's book. I got through the Minor harmony section last night and found it very enlightening. I like the book quite a bit because I find Levine's commentary concise and articulate, and his examples are great because I can play them at the piano and listen to the recordings. Between Chris' summary, and Levine's detail, I think I got it. Now onto Levine's Diminished harmony!

 

[Jazzrob]

Tom (and anyone else of course),
I kicked of "Jazz Lick Of The Week" with the min II V. There's a brief harmonic background to it, and then a few lines.
Hopefully it's along the lines of what you're enquiring about.

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Rob

 

[BassiklyAC]

Tom, if you don't mind me chiming in - there's a text out there written by Mark Levine called The Jazz Theory Book. Very in depth, with a great section on melodic minor harmony. It was a key to unlocking some understanding of minor ii-V-i progressions for me.

Yes, fantastic book. A lifetime of questions answered in there, written in such a way that makes learning infectious and rewards inquisitiveness. If you have even minimal piano skills, put it up on the rack, sit at the keyboard, read it and play.

Then pick up your bass and tell me you're not more musically aware.

 

[hhalt]

Melodic minor scales are nice but hard to apply on bass. Attached is my handout on minor cadences. The goal is to be able to hear the the 3rd and b9 of the dominant chord using the harmonic minor scale and to understand that the b5 of the ii chord becomes the b9 of the V chord. It's amazing how many beginning improvisers will play a natural 9 over the 5 chord. It's all about voice leading. The best thing to do is check out Charlie Parker solos or better yet JS Bach!