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Modes and scales
- Thread starter nathan
- Start date
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,410
- 9,869
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
I've ranted about this many times in the past, but I'll say it again. A C scale from d to d is a C scale. It's also how you construct a D dorian, but it ain't the same thing.fingers said:
Which is why the LYMDAPL method (addressed here) is such a great method for learning modes. Of course, they should be taught with their corresponding chords - lydian with maj7#11 etc, etc....
I really caution anyone that doesn't have a grip on modes against learning them as they correspond to a parent scale (c major, d dorian, e phrygian, etc). This will serve to confuse you!! Try the LYMDAPL method and (this is most important) learn the sound of each mode.
Pacman,
When you say a C Major scale from d to d is different from D dorian, do you mean that in regards to chord progressions in a song?
For example, a C Major going from d to d, if the chart said Dmin that would be the ii chord. In D dorian, the Dmin chord would be the i chord. Is this what you mean?
When you say a C Major scale from d to d is different from D dorian, do you mean that in regards to chord progressions in a song?
For example, a C Major going from d to d, if the chart said Dmin that would be the ii chord. In D dorian, the Dmin chord would be the i chord. Is this what you mean?
This seems like a good time, since I think I spotted some confusion over this a while back, to mention that the mode you're in has absolutely nothing to do with the chords and other notes being played at the same time. You might choose a mode which harmonizes with the current chords, which is what this post started about, I believe, but the backdrop plays no part in determinig what mode you are in.
thanx, that helped me.Wrong Robot said:With all due respect to willplay4food I would like to present another way of remembering modes, some people find it easier, some people don't get it, so I'll just throw it out there. This method works in conjunction with what Billspay4food because it requires a basic knowledge of what the modes are.
So you know the names Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian But you're having problems remembering which one is which. Check this out.
we start with the brightest sounding mode, which is Lydian.
This is because lydian is exactly the same as ionian except, the 4th degree is raised a halfstep. We will be lowering one note from each scale to make the scale progressively darker sounding.
so Lydian looks like this
1-2-3-#4-5-6-7
e.g. C lydian: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-c
Now, we can lower one note to get to ionian
1-2-3-4-5-6-7
e.g. C ionian: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-c
Now, there is only one note we need to change to get to mixolydian, that's the 7th.
1-2-3-4-5-6-b7
e.g C mixolydian: C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-c
From here, again, only one note needs to change to get to Dorian, the third.
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
e.g. C Dorian: C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-c
Now, we lower one note to get to Aeolian, the 6th.
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
e.g. C aeolian: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-c
Now, lower one note to get to Phrygian, the 2nd.
1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
e.g. C phrygian: C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-c
Finally, the last note we lower to get to Locrian is the 5th
1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7
e.g. C locrian: C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-c
I know this might be confusing, but give it some thinking, and it should really help, if not, sorry for wasting your time
snailplow said:Please excuse my ignorance,but what does LYMDAPL mean?
LYMDAPL is the order of modes from most sharped to most flatted:
Lydian
Y?Ionian
Mixolydian
Dorian
Aeolian
Phrygian
Locrian
If you reference Mr. Wrong Roboto's post, you can see the modes in this order.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,410
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- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
The modes are taught as c to c is ionian, d to d (following the c scale) is d dorian but check it out...
If the guitar player is playing dminor and you're playing defgabcd (d dorian) on your bass, that is what gives the mode it's "character", the chord, not the notes. If Mr. guitar player stops playing, and you are still playing those notes, you are now playing plain old c major . Many people here disagree, and say that it is where the whole and half steps fall, but those notes (defgabcd) by themselves in whatever order BY THEMSELVES are still a c scale. If Mr. guitar player is playing E minor, and you are playing the notes of a c scale (let's say efgabcde), you are playing e phrygian. If he stops, guess what, plain old c scale again.
If the guitar player is playing dminor and you're playing defgabcd (d dorian) on your bass, that is what gives the mode it's "character", the chord, not the notes. If Mr. guitar player stops playing, and you are still playing those notes, you are now playing plain old c major . Many people here disagree, and say that it is where the whole and half steps fall, but those notes (defgabcd) by themselves in whatever order BY THEMSELVES are still a c scale. If Mr. guitar player is playing E minor, and you are playing the notes of a c scale (let's say efgabcde), you are playing e phrygian. If he stops, guess what, plain old c scale again.
Hmmm. Maybe I have some misconceptions but this mode of thinking seems strange to me. While what you are saying is true, it is how the half and whole steps fall that define the scale. By what folks seem to be saying an A minor scale is really just a C major. It is the same pitch collection but has a very different character and it is not just how you harmonize it. I know I'm not crazy cuz I have a degree in music. Maybe its really just a different way to think about it.
My other thought is this discussion doesn't really do anything other than argue terminology. While my ex-college student brain is excited by this, my professional musician sense tells me that how you define it doesn't really matter. It's the ears, not the brain, that matter.
My other thought is this discussion doesn't really do anything other than argue terminology. While my ex-college student brain is excited by this, my professional musician sense tells me that how you define it doesn't really matter. It's the ears, not the brain, that matter.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,410
- 9,869
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
Why is it wrong? Think about it for a second, using the examples I gave, and the chord drops out, how are you playing a mode? This whole c to c, d to d thing is just a way to explain what is going on. Mr. moderator, when you play your scales, let's say c maj for discussion purposes, is your first note always C? Do you always play right up to the c an octave above? I doubt it. So when you are playing those notes, are you playing a bunch of different modes? Of course not. The sound and character of the mode comes from the chord(S) it is being played up against. By themselves, notes are just notes. Care to explain why this is wrong?
spc,
Try this. Play a bassline in D dorian mode, a few bars of whatever you make up. Now drop down to C (using the same scale). Notice how it sounds weird for the first few bars? That's because you made the D dorian your tonal center. Even though by dropping down to C you're not changing the notes you're playing, you're changing how they resolve to one another.
Those first few bars where you've changed from D to C will sound weird because C is the b7 note of the D dorian scale. You'll hear it wanting to resolve back up to D.
I don't know if I've explained myself clearly enough but if you try it, you should hear/feel how the C won't sound like the resolution note after you've played a few bars in D dorian.
Try this. Play a bassline in D dorian mode, a few bars of whatever you make up. Now drop down to C (using the same scale). Notice how it sounds weird for the first few bars? That's because you made the D dorian your tonal center. Even though by dropping down to C you're not changing the notes you're playing, you're changing how they resolve to one another.
Those first few bars where you've changed from D to C will sound weird because C is the b7 note of the D dorian scale. You'll hear it wanting to resolve back up to D.
I don't know if I've explained myself clearly enough but if you try it, you should hear/feel how the C won't sound like the resolution note after you've played a few bars in D dorian.
I'm not sure I follow you. This is the part I disagree with. Me playing notes from the c scale in any order by myself is the c scale. Again, unless every time you play whatever scale, you play it starting on and ending on the same note.WillPlay4Food said:
So when you say "Play a bassline in D dorian mode", I'll play notes from the c scale, unless someone comes in here to play a d min chord for me, in which case I would be playing d dorian.
I wouldn't say spc is wrong though I do think this way of thinking is a bit unconventional and maybe a bit confusing.
What makes a scale what is is are how various notes move to eachother. This changes depending on how you arrange the notes. Using C major as a example, B is what is called the leading tone. It wants to move to C. In the case of F lydian the leading tone becomes E. While the pitch collection remains the same the center has changed. This also effects how different mode lead to eachother (we all know, Doian, Mixolydian, Ionian).
What makes a scale what is is are how various notes move to eachother. This changes depending on how you arrange the notes. Using C major as a example, B is what is called the leading tone. It wants to move to C. In the case of F lydian the leading tone becomes E. While the pitch collection remains the same the center has changed. This also effects how different mode lead to eachother (we all know, Doian, Mixolydian, Ionian).
spc said:
Well, for starters--and Pac may well have more to say about it--you're (1) making an unwarranted assumption, (2) contradicting yourself, and (3) ignoring the importance of tonal centers.
The unwarranted assumption is that the set of notes EFGABCDE is somehow "naturally" C major in the absence of anything to the contrary. This is one of the reasons why Pac, and I, and other folks, express reservations about the teaching of modes as derivatives of a major scale. They're not--they're other scales. People get the idea that things like EFGABCDE are in some way fundamentally C. They're not. There's no reason for that set of notes to be more "naturally" C major than to be E phrygian, or B locrian.
The contradiction is that you say the notes are just notes, but then you say they're a C major scale. Which is it? Take your own statement to its logical conclusion: if they're "just notes," then there's no reason why C major is *inherently* a more valid reading of them *by themselves* than D dorian or A aeolian. Unless you're making the mistake of thinking that set of notes is fundamentally or primarily C (see above).
Finally, you're missing the point that how you use that set of notes--specifically, where you establish the tonal center, the harmonic resting place for lack of a better term--determines whether you're playing in C major or G mixolydian or whatever. This is what WillPlay was talking about.
Try this. Play two different lines (I know they're bone-simple, but bear with me). First:
EEDE EEEE GFGF EEEE BCDC BBAG AGFG EEEE
That's gonna sound more like E phrygian. Then use the same notes to play this:
CCEE GGAG FEDF ECDB CCCB CCC
Same set of notes, but definitely in C major. That's because two different tonal centers were established. I know these are simple examples, but I hope the point gets across.
spc said:
Using a piece of fingers' post, let's look at the 2-5-1 chord progression, first in D dorian, then in C Ionian. Remember, these 2 scales have the same notes.
D Dorian:
2 = EGB chord
5 = ACE chord
1 = DFA chord
C Ionian:
2 = DFA chord
5 = GBD chord
1 = CEG chord
See? Even though the scale notes are the same, they revolve around different tonal centers (what fingers was saying). In D Dorian, the C note will always want to lead into a D note. In C Ionian, it's the B note that will always want to lead into a C note.
It's not the fact that they have the same notes in the scale, it's what note is the tonal center and how do the other notes relate to this center.
Please note, the above chord examples could just be arppeggiated on a bass to make a walking line, without any other instrument playing along, and you would feel/hear the difference if you started off playing D Dorian chord arppeggiations then switched to playing C Ionian chord arppeggiations.
Don't take my word for it though, try it for yourself and see!
