Modes and scales

[spc]

What does that have to do with anything, and how does it relate to your original claim? (See your original post.) Sorry, but it's getting less and less clear what you're trying to say.

I second that, and I think we are arguing over the language more than anything...

 

[Marc Piane]

I'm super confused. You were saying that the CDEFGABC pitch collection was an C major scale no matter what the order unless chords were involved. It really seems like you are making this more complicated than it really is.

Also, language in music theory is very important because when someone says something that seems stange it hinders our ability to move forward in discussion.

 

[tim99]

...You aren't playing a mode, unless there is something else going on chordally...It's the chords beneath the scale that make the scale a mode...

...that is what gives the mode it's "character", the chord, not the notes.

...and the chord drops out, how are you playing a mode?...The sound and character of the mode comes from the chord(S) it is being played up against.

...unless someone comes in here to play a d min chord for me...

My whole point here is that there needs to be a chord(S) underneath these notes we are talking about...

It's the chords going on with the scale that make it a mode, right?

It's not a mode until you add another instrument for those notes in the scale to be heard up against.

 

[tim99]

...and I think we are arguing over the language more than anything...

No. This is a discussion about your belief that chords are required along with a series of notes to define a mode.

My whole point here is that there needs to be a chord(S) underneath these notes we are talking about...

I am concerned that others who do not understand modes may happen upon this thread and forever be messed up with this incorrect belief. The tonality of a scale or mode is defined by the series of notes by themselves without a need for a reference note or chord to be played by another instrument at the same time.

Tim99.

 

[lemur821]

Yes, modes are melodic, and backing chords have no bearing on them at all. Modes predate chords, in fact.

 

[Slot]

The whole concept of modal music is that there is no "chords"

When u pick up "so what" and see bar upon bar dmin7, its wrong, and its not what miles intended. It should be bar upon bar of "D dorian", not Dmin 7

The concept of modal music is to create sounds and tensions out of the one scale, without the "vertical" harmonic rules of most other forms of contemporary music.

When i say vertical, im referring to the systematic vertical(on a cleff) stacking of chords: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13

There is no 9, 11, or 13, in modal music. They should be refered to as 2, 4 and 6 due to the fact that modal music should be appproached horizontally, and not in the traditional "upper structure" sense

So when a pianist(a good one) comps over So What, they're not playing Dmin 7, they are actually clustering groups of 4ths and 3rds from within the dorian mode to create sounds and colours of their own choice.

like: E A D G C - D G C E A - F A D G C - B E A D G etc etc


So in other words, you dont need a "chord" for dorian to be dorian. Dorian is what it is - Dorian - Its not just a scale. Its a tonality

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The whole concept of modal music is that there is no "chords"

When u pick up "so what" and see bar upon bar dmin7, its wrong, and its not what miles intended. It should be bar upon bar of "D dorian", not Dmin 7

The concept of modal music is to create sounds and tensions out of the one scale, without the "vertical" harmonic rules of most other forms of contemporary music.

When i say vertical, im referring to the systematic vertical(on a cleff) stacking of chords: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13

There is no 9, 11, or 13, in modal music. They should be refered to as 2, 4 and 6 due to the fact that modal music should be appproached horizontally, and not in the traditional "upper structure" sense

So when a pianist(a good one) comps over So What, they're not playing Dmin 7, they are actually clustering groups of 4ths and 3rds from within the dorian mode to create sounds and colours of their own choice.

like: E A D G C - D G C E A - F A D G C - B E A D G etc etc


So in other words, you dont need a "chord" for dorian to be dorian. Dorian is what it is - Dorian - Its not just a scale. Its a tonality

I agree with the last paragraph 100%, but I don't think I agree with the rest of the post entirely. It's not true that there are no chords in modal music, and it's not true that there is no vertical stacking. What is true is that the horizontal harmony doesn't necessarily proceed in the same way that conventional major or minor does. In D dorian, for example, you don't have the strong dominant, or even the dominant function, that you have in either D major or D minor.

You have to keep in mind that whatever Miles might have been thinking in the '50s, that by no means defines what modal music is. Sure, Miles might have written and intended D dorian-Eb dorian-D dorian, but there's a whole lot more modal music out there--a ton of Irish music, folk, a lot of rock, just for starters--that isn't jazz and doesn't work the way "So What" does. The idea that Dm7 isn't a legit chord symbol to write in any modal piece doesn't hold up IMO. Also IMO, the idea that there is no 9, 11, or 13 in modal music is, from a practical perspective, kinda pointless. A guitarist or pianist could with perfect legitimacy play, or be asked to play--the chord DFACE in a D dorian context, and it would be pedantry, and IMO actually wrong, to say that can't be called a Dm9.

 

[Marc Piane]

The concept of modal music is to create sounds and tensions out of the one scale, without the "vertical" harmonic rules of most other forms of contemporary music.

I'm not sure I agree. Limiting yourself to one pitch collection is the opposite of what modal music was trying the accomplish. It is designed to expand not limit. Miles uses the blues scale,dorian mode, melodic minor, and harmonic minor scales in his solo. Also, you can use upper extension of the chords to hint a bitonality. I really think of D chromatic being the pitch collection and let my ears do the rest. Modal tunes are great tunes to learn how to play out. The harmony is static so it is very easy to push and pull against it.

 

[Slot]

It's not true that there are no chords in modal music, and it's not true that there is no vertical stacking.

Of course there is chords in modal music, i should have phrased that differently because upon re-reading it, it sounds really confusing. What i was getting at is that the harmony is far more improvised, as apposed to 16 bars of straight Dmin7

Also IMO, the idea that there is no 9, 11, or 13 in modal music is, from a practical perspective, kinda pointless.

This concept wasnt easy for me to grasp either. But it was explained to me this way by several lecturers during my degree. Im not saying its the be all and all, its just what i was once taught. In a practical situation though, where i might be trying to teach a melody to a horn player or whoever, i'd still use terms like 9ths etc, just due to the fact that are so easily recognised and accepted.

pianist could with perfect legitimacy play, or be asked to play--the chord DFACE in a D dorian context, and it would be pedantry, and IMO actually wrong, to say that can't be called a Dm9.

Of course they could, and of course it wouldnt be wrong. But how boring would it be to listen to a pianist comp with that same voicing for a long length of time?! Modal voicings usually delve alot deeper than D F A C E. Im not making this stuff up, check out modal music from that era and the pianists are all over it. The use of parrallelism(the shifting of voicings chrmatically to create tension) was/is also heavily utilised

 

[Slot]

I'm not sure I agree. Limiting yourself to one pitch collection is the opposite of what modal music was trying the accomplish. It is designed to expand not limit.

I agree 100%

My quote was reffering to the concept of modal harmonization, not solo concepts. And the whole concept of horizontal harmony is to expand, not limit.

Horizontal is a weird term to comprehend though. I think of it more in terms of,"heres my dorian mode - what clusters of notes in this scale are gonna sound hip", not, "gotta play 1000 bars of dmin7" .....with the horizontal concept you dont have to totally adhere to the notes of the given mode though. Devices like parallellism are heavily utilised to give it that chromatic flavour, and a form of tension and release





Modal music came about because some of the jazz musicians at the time were sick of the harmonic constraints of be-bop. They didnt want to play over 1000 mile progressions anymore because it had been done to death, so they ceated a form of music that was just about the complete opposite. They created a style of music that was based on tonalitys and key centres with little harmonic restraints, as apposed to the pre-modal styles of fast moving chord progressions with little room to really open up and express.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Modal music came about because some of the jazz musicians at the time were sick of the harmonic constraints of be-bop. They didnt want to play over 1000 mile progressions anymore because it had been done to death, so they ceated a form of music that was just about the complete opposite. They created a style of music that was based on tonalitys and key centres with little harmonic restraints, as apposed to the pre-modal styles of fast moving chord progressions with little room to really open up and express.

What you're saying is not wrong, within a certain concept. I'm quite familiar with the modal music jazz musicians got into at the time you're describing.

But you should understand that modal music, in the broadest sense, is much much bigger than what you're talking about. Modal music did NOT come about because of jazz musicians--it had already been around for centuries. Jazz musicians just developed a particular version of it. They did not invent modal music itself, and there is a whole lot of modal music that has nothing at all to do with jazz.

 

[Slot]

Yup, 'modal' music goes back to the medieval period.

But contemporary modal music as we know it today was born(born again) in the post bop era.

I was just outlining an example as to why you dont need a "chord" for a scale to be a scale(as spc was inferring?!) ....errr...if that makes sense. And contemporary modal music is a perfect example of that. I probably beat around the bush a bit, but thats all i was trying to get across

 

[Richard Lindsey]

But contemporary modal music as we know it today was born(born again) in the post bop era.

I was just outlining an example as to why you dont need a "chord" for a scale to be a scale(as spc was inferring?!) ....errr...if that makes sense.

Again, no, not really--there are multiple vital modal traditions living today that have nothing to do with jazz. Contemporary modal music was *not* born with postbop jazz--only a particular subset of it was. Gotta take off the jazz blinkers for a minute! It's not all about jazz.

But yes, with regard to the other point I agree completely--you don't need chords to establish a key/tonality/modality.

 

[Slot]

I promise im not being snide when i ask this, im genuinely interested.

But you can u maybe name a contemporary form of modal music that was around this century before the 50's?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I promise im not being snide when i ask this, im genuinely interested.

But you can u maybe name a contemporary form of modal music that was around this century before the 50's?

That's a bit contradictory, isn't it? You're asking about a "contemporary" form of modal music--but then specify that it be from before the '50s! I dunno how old you are, but I'm 48, and anything before 1956 is not contemporary with me.

But if you meant a form of music that still exists and is still played, then I already answered your question in an earlier post. A lot of Celtic music is modal, at least in large part, as is a lot of folk. There are modes in so-called early music as well; that stuff's old but it's still played. And again, a lot of rock is essentially modal while being highly chordal and not resembling modal jazz much at all.

 

[Phil Smith]

Rap is modal and so is a lot of dance music.

 

[tim99]

Is the Byzantine Chant of the Orthodox Church modal in the way you are meaning? Early Greek music? Gregorian Chant?

Tim99.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Is the Byzantine Chant of the Orthodox Church modal in the way you are meaning? Early Greek music? Gregorian Chant?

Tim99.

From what I've heard, yeah, some of it definitely; but I don't have a wide enough experience to say how much exactly.

 

[Slot]

But if you meant a form of music that still exists and is still played, then I already answered your question in an earlier post. A lot of Celtic music is modal, at least in large part, as is a lot of folk.

Thats fair enough, im not familiar with celtic music or much folk so i'll take your word for it. Though it could be argue that folk and rock music, particulary american folk and rock could have been heavily influenced by the simplicity of the modal music of the 50's. Most of the those psychadelic vamp bands of the 70's would have been into miles.

But when chord scale theory is being discussed, its not often that these styles are bought into the fray. Through no fault of their own though, just because instruments like bass are much more closely connected to the jazz form of modal music, due mainly to our roots in upright bass. So forgive me for not mentioning them. I can only comment on what im familiar witth, otherwise i'd be bull****eing

And yup tim99, even music as far back as gregorian chant could be considered modal. If you ever see transcriptions of plain chant, you may notice a number in the cleff. That number indicates what mode the piece of music is based on. For example, if there was a number 5 in the cleff, the piece would be in Lydian. Back then they also used "plagal" modes. They're similar to the modes we use today, but instead of the tonality being based off the 1st note in the mode, it would be based of the middle note in the mode. ....