Modes; what is the point?

[Spin Doctor]

Most of Jazz is not diatonic, even if Western musicians and classically trained folks help themselves by thinking diatonically (which is what I think you are describing).

Either it is or it isn't. Since I perform jazz regularly, I know for a fact most of it absolutely is. But as you mentioned, it's how you choose to think about it. You have to understand a lot of things that are not obvious on the face of it like secondary dominants, tritone substitutions, etc. Once you get those relationships, they you can see how it relates diatonically. Those are some aspects that make people say jazz is not diatonic. I suppose it's not in the strict sense. But I'm kinda past that.

 

[Lownote38]

OK since you asked. And this is in my experience, so you can take it for what it's worth.



The object isn't to constantly change modes when playing over chords. If I have a ii-V-I in C, I can play whatever I want in the pitch collection of C. Switching modes is a futile gesture since all the modes have the exact same notes. The harmonic underpinning determines the sound, not the notes you play with a certain mode. Modes are related to chord types, but modes don't determine any kind of relationship. They just are what they are.


Extensions don't tell you what mode to play. Extensions are a function of chord quality.


I've found the opposite is true. Most music is diatonic, especially if it's commercial. Even in jazz, there is usually a key center that covers several chords, even if that key center changes within the song. I don't know of many pop tunes that contain a lot of non-diatonic material.


I mainly agree with this, but you are talking about functional harmony, but modes don't teach you that. Modes are certainly related to functional harmony, and informs it in a kind of a loose way.

As I mentioned, your mileage may vary.

Implied chord tones most definitely tell you what scale you can safely use. You need to know how to play inside before you can go outside.

Learning modes, to me IS learning functional harmony. You don't think about modes when you play, but every time the chord changes, so do your chord tones... which relate back to a scale.

If you stack up all chord tones, implied, or written, you get a scale. That cannot be refuted.

Also, jazz is rarely diatonic. Having a tonal center doesn't make something diatonic. It just means there's a tonal center.

Blues is a great example, too. Blues in essence is never diatonic.

Finally, modes are an exercise to help in understanding tonal harmony. They help with the "why" when you want to know harmony. No one in their right mind thinks and plays with modes in mind, though. It's not practical.

This is in the 32 years of my playing experience.

That said, I don't come into the general instruction threads very often on here because simple questions devolve into graphs, maps and long-winded answers.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Implied chord tones most definitely tell you what scale you can safely use. You need to know how to play inside before you can go outside.

Learning modes, to me IS learning functional harmony. You don't think about modes when you play, but every time the chord changes, so do your chord tones... which relate back to a scale.

If you stack up all chord tones, implied, or written, you get a scale. That cannot be refuted.

Also, jazz is rarely diatonic. Having a tonal center doesn't make something diatonic. It just means there's a tonal center.

Blues is a great example, too. Blues in essence is never diatonic.

Finally, modes are an exercise to help in understanding tonal harmony. They help with the "why" when you want to know harmony. No one in their right mind thinks and plays with modes in mind, though. It's not practical.

This is in the 32 years of my playing experience.

That said, I don't come into the general instruction threads very often on here because simple questions devolve into graphs, maps and long-winded answers.

I don't agree with you, but that's ok. You can look at it however you want. I can do this stuff without really thinking about it.

I never said anything about blues being diatonic. In fact, I think blues should be taught in it's own school of thinking and theory.

But you asked the question and I answered it. If you don't like the answer, that's on you.

 

[Lownote38]

I don't agree with you, but that's ok. You can look at it however you want.

I look at it how professors in music school taught me. I like to understand why things work.

As for jazz, think about something as simple as Blue Bossa. It isn't diatonic. There's one 2-5-1 that isn't altered, and that isn't based on the tonal center of the song at all.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I look at it how professors in music school taught me. I like to understand why things work.

As for jazz, think about something as simple as Blue Bossa. It isn't diatonic. There's one 2-5-1 that isn't altered, and that isn't based on the tonal center of the song at all.

Ok, if you want me to say, you're right, then here you go.

You're right. But you're the one making this long winded... You really want to analyze every jazz tune ever written? knock yourself out.

 

[Lownote38]

Ok, if you want me to say, you're right, then here you go.

You're right.

I'm not looking for that, so no worries there, but I can discuss music theory for days. That's all I was doing. No insults, or saying you're wrong. More of a devils advocate type of thing.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'm not looking for that, so no worries there, but I can discuss music theory for days. That's all I was doing. No insults, or saying you're wrong. More of a devils advocate type of thing.

Well, the problem with discussing music theory, is that in general people think that the way they were taught is the only thing there is. I already know there are multiple ways to come at music. It's too wide and too expansive to attribute any one approach to it. So discussing it generally takes a lot of time. But it is interesting to get a different perspective.

 

[Lownote38]

Well, the problem with discussing music theory, is that in general people think that the way they were taught is the only thing there is. I already know there are multiple ways to come at music. It's too wide and too expansive to attribute any one approach to it. So discussing it generally takes a lot of time. But it is interesting to get a different perspective.

Agreed! I was lucky to get dozens of perspectives in college. To classically trained professors, everything was diatonic. I even had a more math driven teacher who didn't believe in minor keys. That's why it's called music "theory".

 

[Spin Doctor]

Having a tonal center doesn't make something diatonic. It just means there's a tonal center.

Since you're here, how about explaining this a bit further. My thing is that if a tune (jazz or whatever) has multiple key centers, then that musical information is diatonic to that particular key.

So how is being diatonic to a key, not diatonic?

 

[Spin Doctor]

To classically trained professors, everything was diatonic

Of course it is, lol.

 

[Lownote38]

Since you're here, how about explaining this a bit further. My thing is that if a tune (jazz or whatever) has multiple key centers, then that musical information is diatonic to that particular key.

So how is being diatonic to a key, not diatonic?

You can think of it like that, sure. Many times, though, a jazz tune will cycle through several 2-5 sequences without hitting a "1". That's a lot of key changes if you think of it diatonically, so I just skip that part of analyzation. After a bunch of 2-5 sequences, eventually there's a tonal center, which could be a major chord, minor chord (natural minor, or more harmonic minor), or the tonal center could be what would be considered a 2 chord. It's really all about chord voicings and how they resolve to the next chord in a given sequence. That's how I think of it.

 

[Lownote38]

Of course it is, lol.

Yeah. To the point that there are some crazy steps in classical theory to explain key changes. All so it fits into a neat package.

 

[Spin Doctor]

You can think of it like that, sure. Many times, though, a jazz tune will cycle through several 2-5 sequences without hitting a "1". That's a lot of key changes if you think of it diatonically, so I just skip that part of analyzation. After a bunch of 2-5 sequences, eventually there's a tonal center, which could be a major chord, minor chord (natural minor, or more harmonic minor), or the tonal center could be what would be considered a 2 chord. It's really all about chord voicings and how they resolve to the next chord in a given sequence. That's how I think of it.

Yeah, we have our ways of getting through tunes. My thing is that I'm trying to make that key center as wide as possible so I don't have to think too hard. But some tunes are just freakin ball busters and you have to deal with it. It's fun in a masochistic way...

 

[Spin Doctor]

Yeah. To the point that there are some crazy steps in classical theory to explain key changes. All so it fits into a neat package.

Yup. That happens in jazz also. It's just theory, like you said.

 

[Lownote38]

Yeah, we have our ways of getting through tunes. My thing is that I'm trying to make that key center as wide as possible so I don't have to think too hard. But some tunes are just freakin ball busters and you have to deal with it. It's fun in a masochistic way...

Definitely, man. I guess I'm a bit sick in the head with that stuff, lol. The more complex it is, the more I want to dive in and learn, lol!

 

[Lownote38]

Yup. That happens in jazz also.

Indeed. I've found that in jazz, though, teachers and players are more forgiving and perfectly cool with not knowing why a chord progression works. Maiden Voyage is that way.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Definitely, man. I guess I'm a bit sick in the head withat stuff, lol. The more complex it is, the more I want to dive in and learn, lol!

Yeah! My band was playing Tell Me a Bedtime Story at one point. I think it's a Herbie Hancock tune. Anyway when I was figuring it out, I realized, "Hey I can play a Hirijosi Pentatonic over this minor chord". That was something I had been fooling around with, that I've now completely forgotten lol.

It can get weird...

 

[Spin Doctor]

Indeed. I've found that in jazz, though, teachers and players are more forgiving and perfectly cool with not knowing why a chord progression works. Maiden Voyage is that way.

I LOVE Maiden Voyage...

 

[Lownote38]

I LOVE Maiden Voyage...

Me too! All those sus chords just shouldn't work, but man, they're beautiful!

 

[Spin Doctor]

Me too! All those sus chords just shouldn't work, but man, they're beautiful!

It's so malleable. You can just play inside and it's beautiful, or come out with Melodic Minor or Half Whole Diminished stuff and it's still just great. Just depends. It's one I play a lot, but am just kinda getting to know it. Plus the bassline is easy, so that part doesn't take a lot of thought. It's the soloing that's really a trick.