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Monitor placement? Having feedback issues :(

N

nsmar4211

Nov 11, 2007
1,016
8
#1
Maybe someone here can help me. Am having some feedback issues in my band. Originally it was due to the mains speakers being behind the band (due to a lack of a monitor). We bought better speakers and started placing them in front of the band, so now our only problem is the monitor feeding back into the singers mic.

PA Setup:

2-Yamaha A15 15" PA speakers
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-A15-15Inch-2Way-Loudspeaker?sku=601432

Yamaha Mixer emx 660
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Samsung 175watt Monitor (not sure of model)

We're currently only running vocal through the PA, I use my Fender bassman amp, the guitarist uses his amp, and the drummer is unmiked (although we did run him through once).

The problem we're having is that no matter how we place the monitor, somewhere the singer moves to will cause feed back. Seems to get more sensitive as the night goes on without us touching any controls. I've tried doing it as the tiltback....propping just a roll of tape under it (so it wasn't tilted as far back), facing it flat (singer couldn't hear it), and the current solution is standing it on end which helps but we still have a "zone".

I'm now wondering if the solution would be to pop that puppy up on a pole and aim it at a 90 degree angle across the band, basically at our ears. Can't put it behind because then the feedback gets worse. Would putting a monitor up on a stand and aiming it across the band (rather than front to back) solve the feedback issue?

I know part of the prob is our singer hand holds the mic and doesn't stay in the same place (unless the feedback forces her too)-the stationary mikes don't feedback. We tried swaping mics, cables, channels......

Now I'm wondering if maybe the mixer isn't powerful enough? I can only turn the vocals about 3 notches when the main volume is almost maxed before feedback, and it doesn't seem to eq out without drastically affecting the vocal sound. Ferget jacking up the vocal volume and then adjusting the mains, you sniffle and it'll feedback. Would the mixer power affect how fast something feeds back?

We're usually cramped so it's hard for the singer to avoid the "feedback zone". It also doesn't help that the mic seems to be picking up the ride cymbals and that cause feed back also.

Help............. I'm drowning!
 
#2
Typically monitor rigs have a graphic eq in the chain to notch out problem frequencies. Placement is important, but there's always a few trouble spots with monitors, especially indoors.

What kind of mics are you using? That matters too.

And is the singer cupping the mic with her hand Run DMC style? That essentially turns the mic omnidirectional. Lots of feedback.
 
#4
I don't remember the exact brand of the mics, but they are good ones... The singer just holds the mic, no hand cupping.

As for the graphic eq extra thing looks like a rack system and we don't have/want a rack (more stuff to move around!). Trying to keep this system simple with the least amount of tweaking necessary (we run the sound from the stage), but if we ever get big stage size that might be something to consider. And how on earth do you tell which frequency is the feedback one? None of us can stop playing in the middle of the song to fiddle, if we knew which one it was a quick swipe could happen though

The hard part about this is the mics don't feedback during sound check, it seems to start halfway through the first set or so and gets more and more sensitive as the night goes. By sensitive it seems the feedback "zone" gets bigger and bigger. But would putting the monitor as a sidefill solve the "zone" issues or would it make the zone bigger being at 90 degrees to the mics?

Thanks for the help guys!
 
#5
It usually helps to have good gear (mics, amps and speakers), but placing them correctly (speakers aiming at mics´null points) is of paramount importance, too. When ignoring the help of an EQ, consider this...:

Would you rather endure the repetitive shame of feedback, or haul another 5-pound unit to gig site?
 
#9
Monitor placement changes depending on the mic type. Your standard SM58 is a cardiod type, which has a dead spot directly behind the mic. So the plug end of the mic should point directly at the monitor to optimally avoid feedback. Whereas the SM58 Beta is a hyper-cardiod, which as dead spots at 30 degrees (IIRC) from behind the mic, so you need to place the mic between monitors to avoid feedback).

If they are top quality mic you should have got manuals or be able to find one online which will tell you where optimum monitor placement will be.
 
#10
ga_edwards said:
Monitor placement changes depending on the mic type. Your standard SM58 is a cardiod type, which has a dead spot directly behind the mic. So the plug end of the mic should point directly at the monitor to optimally avoid feedback. Whereas the SM58 Beta is a hyper-cardiod, which as dead spots at 30 degrees (IIRC) from behind the mic, so you need to place the mic between monitors to avoid feedback).

If they are top quality mic you should have got manuals or be able to find one online which will tell you where optimum monitor placement will be.
Click to expand...

If you read the OPs post there is no optimum monitor placement because the singer is holding the mic and probably not standing in one place all night. They need a 31 band EQ or something like a feedback ferret as mentioned above. Time for the OP to man up and carry the extra gear or continue to fight feedback.:rolleyes:
 
#11
"Time for the OP to man up and carry the extra gear or continue to fight feedback"

*cough* I'm a woman. Besides, I already own most of the PA, the monitors, the cables, the power cords, what lights we have, not to mention my rig. I'm trying to avoid extra equipment until the band makes enough to pay back what I've bought....hence the original question of monitor placement :).

I called up a friend of mine who knows way more than I do about PA's and he gave me some pointers that really helped at last nights gig. In case anyone else has my issues, here's what helped.

First thing we did was notch the 1 k frequency on the monitor's EQ (just the monitor, not the mains). Ended up pulling down the lowest bass also to help clear up the monitors sound. Second thing was to put a sweater over the top of the monitor covering about half the horn (sounds odd.....but it helped!). Third thing (as Ga_edwards noted) was to tell the singer she had to keep the butt pointed at the monitor at all times, period. Fourth was to ask the drummer to be lighter on the two cymbals that seemed to be picking up in the mic (and tell the singer to try and stay away from them). Unchanged was the mains staying in front of us and just relying on the monitor for sound. I also left the monitor as standing on end (instead of tiltback) so it wasn't aimed at the mic.

With all this, the only times we had feedback was then the singer dropped her arm and the mic was in front of the monitor, when the singer knelt down in front of the the guitar amp with a live mic to grab her water, and for some odd reason when I plugged in the CD player for break music (never figured that one out, one time thing and it quit when I turned the mains volume back up).

Verdict of the side fill idea was that it wouldn't work in our cramped quarters because it'd be feeding into the mic :(. I was happy enough with only preventable feedback all night :) :).
Hopefully these tricks will work with the new speakers we're going to use for monitors soon too.

I am curious about something, the feedback ferret I can understand......but wouldn't adding another small EQ in the chain get *really* confusing? The mixer has a seperate EQ for the mains and monitor, plus each channel has low/mid/high/level controls. A big EQ I can kindof undertsand, gives you more options of frequencies to cut, but still seems like you'd have to run all the other eq's flat to make it the most effective?
Gah no wonder soundmen cut off fingers if you breathe near their knobs.
 
#14
nsmar4211 said:
"Time for the OP to man up and carry the extra gear or continue to fight feedback"

*cough* I'm a woman. Besides, I already own most of the PA, the monitors, the cables, the power cords, what lights we have, not to mention my rig. I'm trying to avoid extra equipment until the band makes enough to pay back what I've bought....hence the original question of monitor placement :).

I called up a friend of mine who knows way more than I do about PA's and he gave me some pointers that really helped at last nights gig. In case anyone else has my issues, here's what helped.

First thing we did was notch the 1 k frequency on the monitor's EQ (just the monitor, not the mains). Ended up pulling down the lowest bass also to help clear up the monitors sound. Second thing was to put a sweater over the top of the monitor covering about half the horn (sounds odd.....but it helped!). Third thing (as Ga_edwards noted) was to tell the singer she had to keep the butt pointed at the monitor at all times, period. Fourth was to ask the drummer to be lighter on the two cymbals that seemed to be picking up in the mic (and tell the singer to try and stay away from them). Unchanged was the mains staying in front of us and just relying on the monitor for sound. I also left the monitor as standing on end (instead of tiltback) so it wasn't aimed at the mic.

With all this, the only times we had feedback was then the singer dropped her arm and the mic was in front of the monitor, when the singer knelt down in front of the the guitar amp with a live mic to grab her water, and for some odd reason when I plugged in the CD player for break music (never figured that one out, one time thing and it quit when I turned the mains volume back up).

Verdict of the side fill idea was that it wouldn't work in our cramped quarters because it'd be feeding into the mic :(. I was happy enough with only preventable feedback all night :) :).
Hopefully these tricks will work with the new speakers we're going to use for monitors soon too.

I am curious about something, the feedback ferret I can understand......but wouldn't adding another small EQ in the chain get *really* confusing? The mixer has a seperate EQ for the mains and monitor, plus each channel has low/mid/high/level controls. A big EQ I can kindof undertsand, gives you more options of frequencies to cut, but still seems like you'd have to run all the other eq's flat to make it the most effective?
Gah no wonder soundmen cut off fingers if you breathe near their knobs.
Click to expand...

Sorry didn't realize you were a female. :confused: The problem with the onboard graphic EQs is they don't really work that well. If you decide to buy a 31 band you would set the onboard graphic flat unless it has a by-pass switch. Sounds like the biggest problem is that your singer needs to be aware of where she is pointing her mic at all times.:)
 
#15
"Sorry didn't realize you were a female".
That's ok......if you met me in person you'd never forget it ;)

..." you would set the onboard graphic flat unless it has a by-pass switch" ah ok that makes sense then :).

"Sounds like the biggest problem is that your singer needs to be aware of where she is pointing her mic at all times"-- yea I'm hoping that with the other solutions that'll be the only variable :)

*sigh* I also learned that "monitor" jack on the front has to go to a *powered* monitor........DOH.... *grumble*. Helps to find the manual online!
 
#16
I don't think anyone has addressed proper gain structure, too. The "level control" knob on each channel should be set high enough to put a good, strong signal into that channel, but not too high as to distort and cause more feedback. There should be a sweet spot on each channel that'll give you the best, strongest signal with the least amount of feedback, too.

there's also the effects. Too much reverb will help with feedback, too.

There's a real art and science to making PA systems work for you instead of the other way around. It takes time, patience, knowledge, attention, and critical thinking to figure it out. It's not something quickly or easily learned. It takes many people a lifetime to figure out, and they're always still learning more no matter how long they've been doing it.

Good luck!
 
#17
also, are you using any type of commpressor unit on the vocals? If so, make sure you have it hooked up so that the commpression is not comming through the monitors because this will reduce your gain before feedback. As others have said, make sure the singer is not touching any part of the mic's grill. The industry standard for feedback resistance mics is the audix om7 (or OM5..) FWIW. The pickup pattern of the mic is also important. If it is H.C. then pointing the end of the mic at the speaker might not be ideal. And make sure the mic you are using is a dynamic mic, not a condensor (unless you have a spacific reason for using a condensor).

just some food for thought
 

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