Double Bass More questions about rhythm in an open jam

[Ed S]

My go to jam is Sat morning. 6-8 pickers in a very small rectangular area in a coffee house. With one exception, the pickers are of pretty high caliber, and we've been playing together for several years.

I think our biggest problem is when we get too many guitars. They all have different strum patterns, and different ideas of where to hit the beat. The result (to my ears) is mud.

Do you think of yourself as laying down the rhythm yourself, or do you think of pairing with whomever else is the most solid on the 2/4?

How do you respond when specific people do not seem to mesh with your rhythm? Or when the entire group just seems "muddy"? Do you just comment once and then drop it?

It is just disappointing, because we are all pretty good friends, and we are capable of making some really pretty high quality music. It is disappointing whe it falls so far short of what it COULD be.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Playing good, solid rhythm is your main job, and it is yours. You can bend a little if things are really starting to come apart but otherwise you use body language, gestures,or whatever else to keep things together. Playing with steady confidence is your responsibility. You don't have to make a big deal out of it, but you have to do it. Other listening players will respond to you. It's the center of gravity. Playing the right notes at the right time also helps.

 

[Ed S]

...Other listening players will respond to you. ...

But what about the ones who AREN'T listening? 1-2 folk who are just a tad off can really screw the pooch.

 

[Bruce Calin]

But what about the ones who AREN'T listening? 1-2 folk who are just a tad off can really screw the pooch.

It can be tricky, but if there is even one player who is with you you can ignore the rest. You have to trust your own time and hope for at least one kindred spirit. That can be a real anchor for the rest.

 

[Don Hergert]

You've got a problem, but it isn't unusual at all...

In especially open jams there are always going to be some people who don't know how to follow a bass. It happens. In a private or closed jam, even though we'd like to think everyone is going to be right on with the bass, it can still happen. It's just a part of life, there are going to be some people who just don't get it; it's part of the randomness of a jam.

If the majority of the players in a jam aren't following you, that might be something you can do something about. That's when I'd be especially careful to provide a simple, clear and consistent bass part for them to follow. I might also add some slap occasionally to draw more attention to the beat. And that's also when I might even talk to the whole jam group about it between songs.

Having guitar players play a different and possibly incompatible stroke that doesn't match other people is a more foundational issue that most likely cannot be corrected with the bass. It might get better as the jam goes on, or it might not; it all depends on the players.

If there are just too many guitarists -- or too many of any instrument -- it might also be time to institute some form of taking turns playing.

In my mind, the primary role of any single player in a jam is to help everyone else sound good. That includes me as a bassist, or on whatever other instrument I may be playing. And it similarly includes everyone else. Sometimes discussing that at the beginning of a jam helps everyone.

 

[Ed S]

If you ever heard me play, you'd realize I'm not capable of much more than a straightforward, simple bassline!

I guess what really thrills me in a jam, is when when you just have that boom/click, where the bass and the backbeat are just feeding off of and driving each other. It is effortless, as tho your bass is playing itself. Best IMO is locking in with a mando, but 2 of our regular guitars are really good at meshing with me. So that's what I was getting at asking if it is the bass alone setting the beat or bass + someone.

I have a hard time comprehending the idea of the rhythm being the bass alone. Because your part does not exist in a vacuum. The bass might be the anchor. But if someone isn't keeping time with you, the end result is crappy rhythm.

Having guitar players play a different and possibly incompatible stroke that doesn't match other people is a more foundational issue that most likely cannot be corrected with the bass.

I don't think it is really a completely incompatible stroke, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing the beat and what it means to drive it. For the most part, the boom/click should each be crisp and should not overlap. So if you have 3 guitars all hitting slightly different spots on the 2 and 4, it comes out more like boom/squish.

While this is an open jam, in practice, it really isn't. There is no room for more than 10 people. 6-7 is more comfortable. 90% of the weeks the same 5-6 of us show up, with another 2-3 out of another 4-5 people coming periodically. I've been playing with these guys for 10 years. Some have been playing together for 30.

And that's also when I might even talk to the whole jam group about it between songs.

So what do you say? Last Sat, one guitar was definitely rushing. I mentioned it, and he acted surprised. And kept rushing. I didn't want to be a nag, so I just kinda resigned myself. But that doesn't make the jam enjoyable.

 

[Wasnex]

My go to jam is Sat morning. 6-8 pickers in a very small rectangular area in a coffee house. With one exception, the pickers are of pretty high caliber, and we've been playing together for several years.

I think our biggest problem is when we get too many guitars. They all have different strum patterns, and different ideas of where to hit the beat. The result (to my ears) is mud.

Do you think of yourself as laying down the rhythm yourself, or do you think of pairing with whomever else is the most solid on the 2/4?

How do you respond when specific people do not seem to mesh with your rhythm? Or when the entire group just seems "muddy"? Do you just comment once and then drop it?

It is just disappointing, because we are all pretty good friends, and we are capable of making some really pretty high quality music. It is disappointing whe it falls so far short of what it COULD be.

I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, this is what you get in may jams. Probably little benefit to even bringing it up.

In general I think you have a choice, either accept the chaos or stop participating in the jam.

Basically in this situation we are responsible for what we do, but have little to no control over others. Lay down a great bass line, and others will either respond and try to compliment what you are doing, or they won't. Keep in mind this is a two-way street. It's also on you to listen and try to fit in with the dominant rhythm/feel.

One thing you might try is to position yourself so you hear the good pickers more and the bad pickers less.

 

[brianrost]

With one exception, the pickers are of pretty high caliber, and we've been playing together for several years. They all have different strum patterns, and different ideas of where to hit the beat.

Doesn’t sound very high caliber to me. There’s a reason most bluegrass bands only have one guitarist

It’s a jam, there’s no real way to fix it if you've been playing together for several years.

This is why I think of jam sessions as a social activity first, a musical activity second.

Playing good, solid rhythm is your main job, and it is yours.

In an ensemble, good solid rhythm is everyone’s job.

In picking parties, the strongest players should be in the center, the weakest players should be on the edges playing more quietly. The players should be self-selecting in this regard.

 

[BobKay]

IMHO (and I've said this before), the concept that the bass is responsible for keeping time is flawed. The bass may be responsible for setting the time, but it is the responsibility of every instrument to play in time. In other words, if one person is not keeping time, then the entire ensemble is out of time.

I think you can make a general announcement when the jam starts about everybody listening to each other. That might help; or not. Some people just don't realize they can't play in time.

 

[SAlcott]

Practice with a metronome on 2 and 4.

 

[mikeGJ]

Lock in with the mandolin, bear down. Most “rhythm” guitarists should not be trying to set or keep the pace.

 

[Ed S]

if there is even one player who is with you you can ignore the rest.

I hear you, brother. And there is always someone I lock in with. In the larger, outdoors jams I huddle with the 3-4 best pickers, and we just make sure we are solid, whatever else is going on across the circle. But - for me at least - it gets mentally exhausting to work so hard at ignoring something. I feel like I'm splitting my mind, listening hard to the guys I'm locking with, while also intentionally ignoring something that detracts.

In general I think you have a choice, either accept the chaos or stop participating in the jam.

Yeah - that's pretty much where I'm at. During the summer we play outside, and it is a huge clusterf__. I tend to bring low expectations, and leave early. The winter is much smaller, and has the potential for much higher quality music. It is still pretty good. But I know that as a group we are capable of so much more. It is just disappointing that the folk who come don't put forth that little final bit of effort...

I've kinda gotten spoiled. In addition to this jam, I play in a 3-person group, and in a classical quartet. I have grown to love the small groups, where everyone is listening to each other and working hard to do their best. Having that sort of experience really makes it harder to enjoy sloppier playing.

What kinda bugs me is that this group really is capable of nailing it. When we do, it is a joy. It is so weird as a bassist - that no one else is concentrating as much on every single beat as you. Since I take that role so seriously, it is frustrating when someone is essentially noodling around, messing up the one thing I'm trying to contribute.

As folk say, I think they focus too much on the social part, at the sacrifice of the music. Heck, I'm all about chatting and joking with my friends. It's just that, when we go into a song, why not make it as good as it can be?

One thing you might try is to position yourself so you hear the good pickers more and the bad pickers less.

Yeah - I used to sit back in the corner, but the 2 strongest guitars sit in chairs just in front of that spot, so I can't hear them well. The mando usually sits across from me, but plays too quietly. The guy who sits diagonally across from me has the most suspect rhythm, and a preference for loud guitars - including a 12-er. And he points that thing right at me!

So I've been sitting to the side and in front of the 2 good guitars, even tho I and my bass take up more of the scarce real estate. The other day a fiddler said I was too loud in the new spot. I told him HE could move back into the corner.

Doesn’t sound very high caliber to me. There’s a reason most bluegrass bands only have one guitarist

Well, your opinion. I've gotten to the point where I think guitar is my least favorite instrument, and that 2 guitars is a max. Even with (what I consider) good guitarists, when you get more than a couple, they can easily muddy things up.

Practice with a metronome on 2 and 4.

I do put in a good amount of metronome time. I really do not think that I am failing to hold down my part. But you can only be so solid, when you are playing off of mush.

I guess I should clarify. I'm very aware of my shortcomings, such that I work VERY HARD on my wheelhouse. Which is being rock solid. So I guess I might be being extremely picky and critical of what I expect. But damn it, that's all I'm bringing to the show. Yeah, boils down to expecting too much from a jam. But this is a jam of (mostly) decent pickers who have put in thousands of hours together and share a ton of history/repertoire.

Lock in with the mandolin, bear down. Most “rhythm” guitarists should not be trying to set or keep the pace.

Well, you take what you get. The one mando that comes most regularly is solid, but plays too softly. I think I'll ask if she'll sit next to my new spot.

What frustrates me most is that the guy who was rushing last Sat is a REALLY solid mando picker. But he wants to play guitar, so he brings his damned guitar, even tho we already have at least 2-3, and we don't have much space, and he's not as solid on guitar as on mando. I think he's being selfish, but what can you do.

Good mandos are kinda scarce around here. I play with 2-3 guitarists who I can lock in with wonderfully. It is just that 1 such guitarist is enough.

 

[Bruce Calin]

IMHO (and I've said this before), the concept that the bass is responsible for keeping time is flawed. The bass may be responsible for setting the time, but it is the responsibility of every instrument to play in time. In other words, if one person is not keeping time, then the entire ensemble is out of time.

I think you can make a general announcement when the jam starts about everybody listening to each other. That might help; or not. Some people just don't realize they can't play in time.

Of course this is true, but I think the OP was asking what to do when they're not. Playing good time gives at least the possibility of having someone lock in with the bass and giving some stability. Especially in what I assume are amateur casual jams, a lot of the players may be listening for something to give some guidance rhythmically. The bass is great for this.

 

[turf3]

I've dealt with this many many times.

Part of the issue is guitarists who haven't imbibed the bluegrass method of playing guitar (mostly, "Boom-Chick") and instead try to do the hippie strummy-strummy stuff, plus they're usually used to practicing all by themselves so keeping time in a band is not a tool they have.

You have to kind of find a happy spot (which isn't always possible); then simplify what you're playing and play with a good sharp attack and shorten up the note lengths.

That's the best you can do. You can't pull the whole group along by yourself.

******************************************************

Edit - well, sometimes you can pull the whole group along by yourself, other times you can't. Counting off the tempo only works for a while.

Here's the deal - in an open jam, there will be people of varying skills. Some will be great singers but can't keep a beat, others have great rhythm but blow chords, others know a bunch of memorized solos but they're not quite up to playing them to tempo technically and they can't figure out how to simplify - and of course there are rank beginners who are still working on every aspect of playing bluegrass and/or simply playing their instruments.

You have to look at this as an opportunity to learn what you can, to model welcoming friendly behavior and good musical etiquette. It's not a polished performance, and sometimes things'll lock in and just WOW you with how they come out, and a lot of times they won't.

In the groups I play in, a lot of times there's another issue which is folks who were great players 20 years ago but age and time are taking a toll and creating some musical inadequacies.

Again, this is an opportunity to practice good interpersonal behavior and supportive actions.

 

[KohanMike]

The remedy is for you count in the tempo for each song. I play bass uke with a group of 25, the only way to keep everyone together is I count in the tempo.

 

[Ed S]

I've dealt with this many many times.

Part of the issue is guitarists who haven't imbibed the bluegrass method of playing guitar (mostly, "Boom-Chick") and instead try to do the hippie strummy-strummy stuff, plus they're usually used to practicing all by themselves so keeping time in a band is not a tool they have.
...
Here's the deal - in an open jam, there will be people of varying skills.
...
You have to look at this as an opportunity to learn what you can, to model welcoming friendly behavior and good musical etiquette.
...

Thanks. It is funny when I ask something about jams, and I get so many responses which seem to suggest people experience something quite different than the many different jams I've played in. That might be an interesting thread - just to hear what different people think of and experience under the name "jam."

Just to address a couple of your points. You hit the nail right on the head as to guitarists. You get people who fingerpick, use a thumb pick, whatever. And so many of them just want to show off how many notes they can sound! Meanwhile, if you have 3 quitarists trying to hit a single beat, very few put forth the effort to hit it EXACTLY AT THE SAME SPOT on that beat. Yeah, the best is to have a power mando. Then the guitars can do pretty much whatever they want. But if the mando is weak or absent, IME I need to key in on one of the guitars.

I just find it so weird - and fatiguing - to have to ignore the sounds that are off beat. Since I'm concentrating on keeping the rhythm solid, I seems beats that are off just grab my attention. I don't think anyone else in the jam has to make such an ongoing effort.

Re: people of varying skills - with one exception, these people are (by my assessment) of pretty decent skill level. Like I said, the rankest beginner has been playing for over a decade, and we share a considerable repertoire. I think they are content to just get together and bang away at something that is CLOSE TO really good, without putting forth the effort to make it REALLY good. There is only the one guy - the 12er - who really has crappy rhythm. And he has been playing with the group the longest! He has some hearing loss and just bangs away. The group sounds much better when he is absent. But he's a nice guy and isn't HORRIBLE, so no one will tell him to leave. I wish there were a way to suggest that he play more quietly, but people tend to take such suggestions as tho you had suggested killing their puppy...

Re: the etiquette thing. I think that's kinda bull$hit. IMO, etiquette is for everyone to listen to each other, play quietly when they are uncertain, not yak when the next person is trying to start a song, listen when the next
person announces the song/key, not engage in conversations during a song, make some effort to improve/contribute, be ready to pick a song or pass when it is your turn, not consistently pick jam busters... It sorta bugs me when the suggestion is that the person pointing out rudeness is, in fact, the one who needs to practice etiquette. Hell, if someone would simply follow etiquette in the first place, it would never cross my mind to suggest anyone act differently. And it isn't as tho these people are young, newbies, or haven't been part of "etiquette" discussions in the past.

Like I said, I'm really making this sound like a worse problem than it is. Most anyone other than another BG musician would think it sounds just fine. Pretty good, in fact. It's just when I'm sitting over there trying to do little other than lay down a groove and drive a rhythm, that I think how easily it could be so much better. And, as I said above. If we are putting forth the effort to do something, why not put forth the little bit of effort - that is readily within anyone's ability - to do something REALLY GOOD? (As I get older, I have less and less eagerness to participate in mediocre stuff.)

 

[turf3]

Thanks. It is funny when I ask something about jams, and I get so many responses which seem to suggest people experience something quite different than the many different jams I've played in. That might be an interesting thread - just to hear what different people think of and experience under the name "jam." ...

...Re: people of varying skills - with one exception, these people are (by my assessment) of pretty decent skill level. Like I said, the rankest beginner has been playing for over a decade, and we share a considerable repertoire. I think they are content to just get together and bang away at something that is CLOSE TO really good, without putting forth the effort to make it REALLY good. There is only the one guy - the 12er - who really has crappy rhythm. And he has been playing with the group the longest! He has some hearing loss and just bangs away. The group sounds much better when he is absent. But he's a nice guy and isn't HORRIBLE, so no one will tell him to leave. I wish there were a way to suggest that he play more quietly, but people tend to take such suggestions as tho you had suggested killing their puppy...

...Like I said, I'm really making this sound like a worse problem than it is. Most anyone other than another BG musician would think it sounds just fine. Pretty good, in fact. It's just when I'm sitting over there trying to do little other than lay down a groove and drive a rhythm, that I think how easily it could be so much better. And, as I said above. If we are putting forth the effort to do something, why not put forth the little bit of effort - that is readily within anyone's ability - to do something REALLY GOOD? (As I get older, I have less and less eagerness to participate in mediocre stuff.)

Well, what you're talking about is essentially converting an open jam into a band. Nothing wrong with that, but then it becomes a band, not an open jam.

 

[Ed S]

Well, what you're talking about is essentially converting an open jam into a band. Nothing wrong with that, but then it becomes a band, not an open jam.

Not sure I agree at all. I think you are using terms as tho they have agreed upon definitions. In my experience, there exist many points between the extremes of "open jam" and "band."

Are all jams equally "open"? Aren't there possibly different "levels" of "openness"? For example:
-open to all, from newbie to pro;
-beginner/slow jam;
-strictly bluegrass/oldtime/Irish/Americana...;
-advanced;
-acoustic/certain instruments/limited number of participants only;
...

Heck - there was a time during covid that my band didn't gig for a couple of years. And we still gig less frequently than before. Were we still a "band" when we weren't gigging? Were our weekly sessions jams or practices? Is a picture a work of art even if it is stuck in a closet rather than hung on a wall.

How tolerant do you think https://stationinn.com/event/bluegrass-jam/]these guys[/url] would be of someone who didn't listen and kept poor rhythm.

Not meaning to be aggressive or anything, but your response seems to debate semantics - which I don't find terribly useful or interesting, rather than helpfully addressing something I've long experienced in real life.

In my situation, 4-5 pickers meet pretty regularly every Sat for 10 years. We play in public - in a coffee house. People call us "The Farmer's Market Band", but we don't have a set list or anything, and pickers bring new music regularly. I'm certain that none of the regular pickers would think of our group as a "band", tho - if asked - we might say we were "The Farmers' Market Band." Hell, the 20+ person clusterf___ outdoors at the market in sumer IS called the Farmers' Market Band - and THAT cacophony surely IS NOT what I could consider to be a "band".

Instead, I suspect all of us would call what we do a jam. Various combinations of us regulars have played gigs under different names. And more open combinations have played more informally in community gatherings - billed as "The Farmers Market Band."

By your definition, are the regulars who play together every Sat morning a band or a jam?

Another couple of people out of 4-5 join pretty regularly. Are they in the band, or does their presence convert it to a jam?

Occasionally a complete newbie will join. Sometimes they become a regular or occasional participant, other times they are never seen again. Again, if we let them play, are we a band/jam with special guest?

Like I said, distinctions between designations such as band, jam, and open jam impress me as better fodder for a different thread.

 

[turf3]

I didn't mean to get into a discussion about the meaning of "band" vs "jam". What I'm saying is that the problems you're talking about will require someone to take charge and act as a leader, including rehearsal and occasionally giving firm and possibly unwanted feedback, if you want the playing to get better. Some people may have to be removed if they don't show motivation to improve, or if they just can't improve. People who want to sit in will be welcomed if they enhance the product and told not to come back if they don't (using good judgement of course).

Just sitting on the bass chair, you are NOT going to magically be able to change people who play with poor rhythm into people who do. If you (or someone else) decides to take a leadership position, establish minimum levels to play with this group, and "counsel" those who aren't enhancing the music that they need to shape up or ship out, then improvements can be obtained. Whether you want to call the "before leadership and come-to-Jesus-meetings" thing a jam or band, and the "after imposing leadership and shaping up or shipping out" thing as a band or jam, is (as you note) not really important. What's important is not what you call it, but how it acts.

Are you ready to take on that leadership role and start insisting on better results? If not, do you think there's someone who could be induced to do so? If not, then what you've got is what you've got, and absent such a leadership person, it's unlikely to change.

That is what I mean by using the terms "jam" and "band", terms which I thought the vast majority of people would readily understand, but maybe I was wrong in that estimate.

 

[Ed S]

I agree about the need for "leadership" to address such situations (tho not about rehearsals.) IMO one of the shortcomings of this group is that they wish to keep the image of being extremely open and democratic. Which I think contributes to some unfortunate dynamics.

Yeah, some of the more senior members are pretty generally accepted as the "elder statesmen." But they really resist "laying down the law" except in extreme situations.

As noted above, I've realized that my only recourse is to lower my expectations and/or decide not to participate. I repeat, as far as jams go, this really is one of the best I've encountered in a decade of pretty regular and diverse jamming.

I think my moving to where I can more clearly hear the 2 guitars I want to lock in with will be the best/only thing I can do. It is so weird because sometimes the timing is so tight - it really is a joy. Then it is hard to explain exactly why it gets slightly off. And sometimes if you just say, "Let's listen more carefully and tighten it up", that is sufficient to have the desired effect. But other times it isn't.

And I don't want to assume the position of "beat cop", such that I'm always harping on the same thing. At that point, as I said, the better option is to lower my expectations. I KNOW the 2 guitars want to be as rock-solid as possible. So I think if I have any questions/concerns, I will mention them only to those 2, and leave it up to the others to listen and/or adjust as they choose.

Thanks for the discussion. This jam is one of my most joyful recurring experiences, and I am very lucky for it. Discussing it in this manner helps me continue participating with a good mindset. It stinks to get up early, drive to the jam, and come home hours later tired and feeling somewhat unfulfilled.