most efficient cab for low freqs *in production*?

[Rando McNally]

bongomania,

...As a side note, I'm not a big believer in the accuracy of efficiency specs on cabs (besides, they are often at 1kHZ... who knows what's happening down at 30Hz?). I am a believer in trying as many cabs as you can until you find what you're looking for.

Also, I've come to the realization that there just isn't that much energy in the 30-50Hz range for bass guitars... thus I trust my ears much more than the published -3dB low frequency specs for cabinets. That isn't to say I ignore the specs, I just don't base my decisions solely on them...

Me too.
Let's put it this way. In the real world when I A/B my BagEnd ported 18 (36Hz) and elf 18 (8Hz) the ported cab that doesn't go as low on paper has an apparently fuller low end than the elf that goes well below what you can hear. Now, on a tone generator, or keyboard, or my moog taurus, yeah, the sub going to 8Hz is awesome, but for bass guitar, I get more volume, and a fuller bass response to my ears with the 36Hz cab.

Specs just don't do it. There is so much more to low end than what happens in the air between your ears and speakers. It's in your bones, and it's in your mind.

 

[gweimer]

I would think that the Phil Jones stuff is right up there. And, he breaks down the theory for you. I played one of Flightcase amps, and it was a LOT warmer and clear than an Ampeg someone down the aisle was trying out.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Rando McNally]

Totally impractical for my current "needs", but that EV cab I linked has me imagining that a stack something like this:

Link Removed

...would provide a hefty impact.

BONGO!

I did this with a set of EV Eliminators once! It was a pinch, and my drummer has a PA in his storage unit, so we grabbed them and stacked them just like your pic.

Headroom forever. 5 string was no problem. I think I gave them each a 200w channel out of my stewart world 1.2

Sorry, no help with the spec chart, but a similar setup did very nicely for me once.

 

[alexclaber]

In the real world when I A/B my BagEnd ported 18 (36Hz) and elf 18 (8Hz) the ported cab that doesn't go as low on paper has an apparently fuller low end than the elf that goes well below what you can hear. Now, on a tone generator, or keyboard, or my moog taurus, yeah, the sub going to 8Hz is awesome, but for bass guitar, I get more volume, and a fuller bass response to my ears with the 36Hz cab.

I noticed a similar thing with my Barefaced Big One vs my old Acme Low-B2s. The former is F6 @ 41Hz whilst the latter F6 @ 31Hz. However because of the way the cabs are designed and tuned the Acmes very gradually roll off from ~100Hz whilst the Big One stays flatter down towards 60Hz and then the response drops more quickly. So you get a bit more where it really counts even though you lose quite a lot in the lowest note fundamentals - and more importantly you gain quite a lot of sensitivity.

Alex

 

[Rando McNally]

I liken low end reproduction to the wind chill effect. Sure, microphones and spectrum analyzers can tell you a lot, but it's only one aspect of low end, and that is what is transferred through the air to your ear. Bones and Brains are just as important, and these two factors, to me, can be utilized to compensate for a lack of measured SPLs at a given freq.

So I'm back to Bag End ELF, which is about the lowest loudest smallest package out there.

Contrary to an early post, it CAN be quite efficient if you set it up correctly. If you are not looking for sub-bass, but for bass guitar, you can adjust your processor to cut off at different freqs. I had mine set at (about) 25Hz and it got a whole new pile of headroom without sacrificing anything, and could get more SPLs with less power.

I still want to know what you mean by low power though (if you posted it and I missed it I'm sorry).

BTW, if 1000w is your idea of efficient, the EAW FR250z is HUGE!!!

I think the trouble is that now I want a Meyer bass rig.

 

[Alaska Bass]

He said 50 watts.

Meyer! Meyer! Meyer!

 

[bongomania]

I'm back to Bag End ELF, which is about the lowest loudest smallest package out there. Contrary to an early post, it CAN be quite efficient if you set it up correctly. If you are not looking for sub-bass, but for bass guitar, you can adjust your processor to cut off at different freqs. I had mine set at (about) 25Hz and it got a whole new pile of headroom without sacrificing anything, and could get more SPLs with less power.

That's a good point, and I do use a parametric EQ to roll off the lowest lows. As I noted earlier, in my case it's not that I want powerful ultra-low fundamentals, just that I wanted to get the most oomph per watt in the general low end.

I still want to know what you mean by low power though (if you posted it and I missed it I'm sorry).

I did mention a 50W tube amp, but there are other amps in the up to 300W range for which I would also want this sort of cab.

 

[Rando McNally]

That's a good point, and I do use a parametric EQ to roll off the lowest lows. As I noted earlier, in my case it's not that I want powerful ultra-low fundamentals, just that I wanted to get the most oomph per watt in the general low end.

Yup, but with the elf you actually open up the 1U processor and change a capacitor to adjust your xover points and your low cut freq. If you give up that 8Hz to 24Hz (or go even higher, 30Hz or so)you don't really use anyway you have yourself a nice deeeeeeeeeep tiny little package. 300w will do it, but you have to run it stereo. The sub won't run on the same channel as your top cab.

BTW, once you've invested in the processor, you might think about picking up a BE 2x10 sub for your recording rig. You will be amazed. You could also use your 18, but the 2x10 is a little nicer for near field stuff and lower volume.

Hmm. Now that I've taken that tangent, maybe a pair of 2x10 elf subs for your basement rig. That would be pretty nice I think, super small, flexible, add new life to your recording studio, and be easy on the back if you take it out.

I've had the 2x10 sub before. Great sound, micro package, not a lot of SPLs. But two, that would be nice.

 

[Swift713]

My Eden d112xlt has a very decent low end at lower volumes. It really pumps it out with my Bassbuddy so it would probably be very nice with a 50 watt tube amp. Once you start getting some normal rock band volume though the low end gets a bit weak.

By the way Bongo, I'm serious about trading a fEarful box for a 3012, alpha 6, and a crossover.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

So I'm back to Bag End ELF, which is about the lowest loudest smallest package out there.
.

And very inefficient, which is totally at cross-purposes with the OPs intent. So far I've seen a lot of suggestions with zero data to back them up.
The OP is looking for a cab that goes low and loud with minimal power. Those who think specific models of cabs are capable of going and loud with low power should post the model and the appropriate data to back it up, and that data is an SPL/watt chart. Sensitivity claims without a chart to back them up aren't worth doodly squat. :scowl:

My feeling is that he probably doesn't care all that much for spending $2k and more either. But the fact of the matter is that there are only two ways to achieve very high sensitivities, and they're called horns and line arrays. Neither is small, and neither is cheap. But if high volume at low frequencies from a small amp is the goal they are the only ways of getting there.

 

[spode master]

Hey Bongo:

The EV's look like a decent option.

I think they've mixed up the "half space", "full space" graphs (but maybe full space really means 1/4 space?? not Free space?).

Half space is how it would perform sitting on the floor away from walls (or mounted in an infinite wall).

I think its more accurate to say the 55Hz is -6dB.

My main critique about the design as a PA speaker is that The X-over point is very high for crossing over to a 15. The 15" driver starts beaming before the xover frequency so the polar response in the 1-2kHz range will be funny.

I'm not sure you want to run the pair in that Di Apolito like configuration unless you get the boxes horns elevated closer to Ear level, I single on a stick ear level should be good to, if its close to a wall you will get some 1/2 space loading. Or put it in a corner and get 1/4 space loading (Full space???).

I think another reason you may not want to run Di Apolito style, is that if they are using L-R xover like is common in many modern speakers, there will be a Nul at xover at 45 degrees between the horn and woofer, so your head may be right in that nul and you will have a blind spot in the 1.6kHz range.

What style of music do you play Bongo? Do you like an ultra clean extended range sound?

 

[bongomania]

You're right on the money, Bill. Any chance you could take a look at this ( Invalid Link Removed and Invalid Link Removed ) and let me know if it approaches a decent compromise?

Or any other compromises you think are worth exploring, given the horn and line array comments? Thanks!

P.S. That includes any of your specific designs you think meet the goal as well.

 

[bongomania]

Ah, spode... I play a wide range of styles; I like dirty just as much as clean; I like the 30Hz to 3KHz range best.

Thanx for the tips on that stack arrangement, even though I wasn't really planning on doing it.

 

[spode master]

Rando:

I'm not sure what type of music you play. I have nothing against Bag End, the ELF/Infra is a reasonable compromise, but they are not efficient enough in the sub registers for a loud band.

I built this sealed sub which is powered by 2kW its max output @ 20Hz 1/2 space is ~ 111dB, ~117dB @ 30Hz. Its not enough for sub bass in a loud band but just right for a mellow gig.

It weighs 170lbs.

Its great fun and louder than the Bag End single and perhaps Dual 18 Elf/Infra.

But credit where credits due, I got the idea from bag end and linkwitz labs.

The one claim that Bag end makes that I find Dubious, is their claim that the phase shift from the "Dual Integrator" (Simple Op amp circuit), better maintains the time alignment in the low end and makes things sound louder.

Perhaps Bill F. has some thoughts about that?

Bag End Great Stuff, ELF efficient not bellow box tuning, 12dB per octave less headroom.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

You're right on the money, Bill. Any chance you could take a look at this ( Invalid Link Removed and Invalid Link Removed ) and let me know if it approaches a decent compromise?

Or any other compromises you think are worth exploring, given the horn and line array comments? Thanks!

P.S. That includes any of your specific designs you think meet the goal as well.

That EV looks about as good as it gets from a cab of that size, and with the 6dB of additional voltage sensitivity you'd get in the low end with a pair even 50 watts would make a pretty good racket. Commercial horns and line arrays are probably prohibitively expensive. From my line a T48 sub with an OTop 12 top would deliver, big time, but you're looking at a six by two by two foot rig.

I think another reason you may not want to run Di Apolito style, is that if they are using L-R xover like is common in many modern speakers, there will be a Nul at xover at 45 degrees between the horn and woofer, so your head may be right in that nul and you will have a blind spot in the 1.6kHz range.

Spode, Henry Kloss was running inverted pairs of Advents as WTTWs when Joe D'Appolito was still in high school.
And chances are he wasn't the first to have done so.

 

[spode master]

Spode, Henry Kloss was running inverted pairs of Advents as WTTWs when Joe D'Appolito was still in high school.
And chances are he wasn't the first to have done so.

Oh I'm sure many people did something similar. J D'Appolito somehow got the WTW named after him. He seems to know a great deal about "Testing Loudspeakers".

The one thing that I wonder is if there is really an appreciable benefit from having the Xover Nulls aiming at the Floor and Ceiling.

Which has lead me to think that would be a weak spot for all Horizontally oriented WHW line array boxes. I'm sure the audience won't notice or are blissfully ignorant of a xover null 45 degrees off axis from a Line Array.

And following D'Appolito's logic, wouldn't it be better to have a horizontal WH line array with the Xover null aimed toward the Wall, instead of the current WHW arrangement?

Sorry Brain Farts

 

[redstaraudio]

spode master - you did a nice job on the cabs. good work on the handles, and the grills look really sharp. good work all around.

 

[spode master]

Thanks Red Star, I think I spent many a late night after work building jigs and routing. nailing gluing painting.

About 3 months I think its amazing how long a first build can take, especially since I'm not cabinet builder.

Antone-