Double Bass Move over Piezzo, Contact Mics are here (and they're better - Recorded Sample)

[rickwolff]

I thought I'd just throw out those 'fighting words' to see if I can get some reaction here.

OK, I do still have a piezzo and even a magnetic pickup -but they're both on my plywood bass. They do a good job of what they do, but they would never be able to capture the 'acoustic, wooden sound' of my carved bass. That's where the contact mics come in.

I know there are those (Hi, Vunz) who use a high quality 'air mic' and have success with that. I have found that the twin-headed monsters of feedback and bleed left me dissatisfied with 'air mics'.

Both those problems are (almost entirely) solved by using a contact mic. I have two different ones and I have included a link here to soundcloud so you can hear what they sound like. (You'll have to guess which is which - PM me if you're really curious).

A quick note on the Ischell - the ONLY time I had any feedback was one time when I changed its position and there was apparently a tiny pin-hole air leak in the putty. I simply pressed down around the mic, pushing the putty 'donut' tighter to the top and the feedback immediately disappeared.

The AKG C4111 is, if anything, even easier to work with. It is a true 'contact mic' and not an 'air mic' in contact with the bass surface sealed air-tight with putty.

They both sound good to me and definately get the true sound of my bass - both live through my MAS 26 and also straight into the recorder which the attached clip is. I ended up moving the Ischell from just below the G bridge foot a little closer to the f hole and just about right on top of the sound post. It became a little 'crisper' sounding and lost a little of the boominess I was getting before.

You'll hear in the clips that a 'better sound' hasn't made me a 'better player', but at least I'm getting a sound that I enjoy. The arco was done just to give you some idea of the sound (and to demonstrate why my bow stays at home).

Enjoy.

Rick Wolff just click my name and it brings you to the Soundcloud clips

 

[rickwolff]

So am I the only TB member with OCD or what??

I'm surprised that no one found this Contact Mic VS Piezzo issue 'newsworthy'. Maybe it's a case of some of the best things hiding in plain site. I went back and looked for old threads mentioning the AKG C411 (The Ischell is too new on the scene to have this kind of history) and I found a thread that goes all the way back to 2005. Here are some of the quotes from that thread:

So far I’m really impressed by the thickness, realism and balance of the sound, much better than any piezo I tested in the past.

So far great results from the AKG C411 applied on both acoustic and electric upright bass and over all a great improvement over a piezo also in my experience

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With the phantom power on my AI combo engaged, the c411 cranks out a lot of signal.

How does it sound?- Really good. I was surprised at how 'mic-like' the sound was. It does take experimentation to find a good sound, but in 20 mins I had 3 or 4 sounds that I would be happy to use on the gig or even studio. The isolation on this mic is tremendous- I was right on top of my amp and had it cranked. I ended up with the mike on the bass bar below the bridge halfway towards the endpin. Having the freedom to move the mic around means that every bass can find its own sweet spot.

So my question is this? Why aren't more bassists aware of and using this mic since the general level of dissatisfaction with (most) piezzos seems to be pretty high?

AND, the comments above are with regard to the AKG C411, the Ischell mic, in my opinion, is even better, but BOTH of them sound better than piezzos to me.

Of course back in the 70's and 80's when I 'upgraded' from a De Armond contact mic to a Barcus Berry piezzo I was as happy as a pig in mud. Maybe it's just different strokes for different folks.

Peace.

 

[HughFosterWood]

Ok ok ok. You love the Ischell. So its not piezo OR contact mic. That Ehrlund is a contact mic and its a piezo! Guys here seem to love it too.

 

[rickwolff]

Ok ok ok. You love the Ischell. So its not piezo OR contact mic. That Ehrlund is a contact mic and its a piezo! Guys here seem to love it too.

We could get really tangled up in definitions. I'm not sure if a piezzo CAN be a contact MIC. (Enlighten me if I'm wrong). The Ischell IS a MIC and IS IN CONTACT with the top of the bass - admittedly with a small cushion of putty between the mic itself and the bass - perhaps 1/16 of an inch - if that.

I would just like to see some of the many people who love the Ehrlund or any other mic OR pickup post some sound clips that demonstrate how good it is. I don't post sound clips because I think I'm such a great player (I'll probably never catch up after my 25 year hiatus), BUT the sound clips I post DO accurately represent the sound of my bass and that is a sound I have worked very hard to produce and one which I like. You or others may not care for the type of sound or tone that I get, and that's fine, but how about posting some sound clips of your own rig that makes YOU happy. I really don't buy the idea that it's so impossible to accurately record the sound of a bass that recordings are worthless (an idea that has received a lot of support on this blog - if not in exactly those words).

 

[Don Kasper]

It's all about the Benjamin$. I have personally contributed and supported ALL sorts of DB Pickup manufacturers in the past 4 decades.
I'll let the Nouveau Riche or Nouveau Retired demographic fund the Next Big Thing.
I'm Tapped OUT!
I'm melting and combining old cakes of rosin, ferchrissakes!

 

[rickwolff]

It's all about the Benjamin$. I have personally contributed and supported ALL sorts of DB Pickup manufacturers in the past 4 decades.
I'll let the Nouveau Riche or Nouveau Retired demographic fund the Next Big Thing.
I'm Tapped OUT!
I'm melting and combining old cakes of rosin, ferchrissakes!

Thanks. Don! You made me laugh out loud. Always a good thing.

 

[Don Kasper]

Thanks. Don! You made me laugh out loud. Always a good thing.

(Shhhhh....don't tell my wallet, but I think this Ishell/AKG C411 concept is really intriguing...)

 

[rickwolff]

(Shhhhh....don't tell my wallet, but I think this Ishell/AKG C411 concept is really intriguing...)

Let me know if you'd like to try the AKG. I'D be happy to mail it out to you.

 

[HughFosterWood]

We could get really tangled up in definitions. I'm not sure if a piezzo CAN be a contact MIC. (Enlighten me if I'm wrong). The Ischell IS a MIC and IS IN CONTACT with the top of the bass - admittedly with a small cushion of putty between the mic itself and the bass - perhaps 1/16 of an inch - if that.

I would just like to see some of the many people who love the Ehrlund or any other mic OR pickup post some sound clips that demonstrate how good it is. I don't post sound clips because I think I'm such a great player (I'll probably never catch up after my 25 year hiatus), BUT the sound clips I post DO accurately represent the sound of my bass and that is a sound I have worked very hard to produce and one which I like. You or others may not care for the type of sound or tone that I get, and that's fine, but how about posting some sound clips of your own rig that makes YOU happy. I really don't buy the idea that it's so impossible to accurately record the sound of a bass that recordings are worthless (an idea that has received a lot of support on this blog - if not in exactly those words).

Well buddy-- you're wrong. For example this. Ehrlund is more purely a contact mic than is Ischell. This might keep ya busy too. Youve shouted Ischell from the hilltops and we all heard ya. In 6 months we'll have a new latest and greatest.

 

[Don Kasper]

Let me know if you'd like to try the AKG. I'D be happy to mail it out to you.

Very tempting, Rick.
I think, for now, I'll continue lurking and see how this concept develops, as it seems to be in the early stages.
My current set up is "predictable/reliable", but definitely NOT purely MBOL. I'm becoming less adventurous (gear-wise), in my old age, I guess.
Thanks for the offer.

 

[Nathan Levine]

I asked one of the guitarists about the French contact mic / pickup he's been using for the past year at a gig today. I suspected the answer might be familiar to us and sure enough, he said it was an Ischell. Now to plug it into the Felix just for fun.

 

[Nathan Levine]

And for the record, he really digs it.

 

[shwashwa]

I thought I'd just throw out those 'fighting words' to see if I can get some reaction here.

OK, I do still have a piezzo and even a magnetic pickup -but they're both on my plywood bass. They do a good job of what they do, but they would never be able to capture the 'acoustic, wooden sound' of my carved bass. That's where the contact mics come in.

I know there are those (Hi, Vunz) who use a high quality 'air mic' and have success with that. I have found that the twin-headed monsters of feedback and bleed left me dissatisfied with 'air mics'.

Both those problems are (almost entirely) solved by using a contact mic. I have two different ones and I have included a link here to soundcloud so you can hear what they sound like. (You'll have to guess which is which - PM me if you're really curious).

A quick note on the Ischell - the ONLY time I had any feedback was one time when I changed its position and there was apparently a tiny pin-hole air leak in the putty. I simply pressed down around the mic, pushing the putty 'donut' tighter to the top and the feedback immediately disappeared.

The AKG C4111 is, if anything, even easier to work with. It is a true 'contact mic' and not an 'air mic' in contact with the bass surface sealed air-tight with putty.

They both sound good to me and definately get the true sound of my bass - both live through my MAS 26 and also straight into the recorder which the attached clip is. I ended up moving the Ischell from just below the G bridge foot a little closer to the f hole and just about right on top of the sound post. It became a little 'crisper' sounding and lost a little of the boominess I was getting before.

You'll hear in the clips that a 'better sound' hasn't made me a 'better player', but at least I'm getting a sound that I enjoy. The arco was done just to give you some idea of the sound (and to demonstrate why my bow stays at home).

Enjoy.

Rick Wolff just click my name and it brings you to the Soundcloud clips

i cant figure out which is which in the sound clips

 

[rickwolff]

Well buddy-- you're wrong.

And not for the first time.

 

[John F Hebert]

I'm gonna sell my Upton piezo and try one of these instead.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Color me intrigued by the AKG for the price. The clips do sound better than piezos IMO. A few things that have concerned me about contact mics are:

1. Is the puddy going to leave a spot on my finish if I remove it? The documentation says no, but I've seen one of my old band mate's using a similar product on guitar, and it certainly left something behind when removed. Maybe it buffs off, but my bass doesn't have clear coat to buff out. If something is going to leave a scar on my bass, I prefer it be me knocking it around bars.

2. Has anyone tested the feedback rejection of one of these in a loud club/PA environment? My experience with mic's has been superior sound, but don't take it louder than dinner jazz volumes. Most of the guys I see using the fancier stuff aren't competing on rock PA's.

3. How well does it stay put for a gigging musician that is loading everything including the kitchen sink for gigs?

 

[rickwolff]

Color me intrigued by the AKG for the price. The clips do sound better than piezos IMO. A few things that have concerned me about contact mics are:

1. Is the puddy going to leave a spot on my finish if I remove it? The documentation says no, but I've seen one of my old band mate's using a similar product on guitar, and it certainly left something behind when removed. Maybe it buffs off, but my bass doesn't have clear coat to buff out. If something is going to leave a scar on my bass, I prefer it be me knocking it around bars.

2. Has anyone tested the feedback rejection of one of these in a loud club/PA environment? My experience with mic's has been superior sound, but don't take it louder than dinner jazz volumes. Most of the guys I see using the fancier stuff aren't competing on rock PA's.

3. How well does it stay put for a gigging musician that is loading everything including the kitchen sink for gigs?

Hi Syd (Seven Years Down???),

1. I got mine used and it came without any of the putty/adhesive. I bought some BluStick which worked but now I'm using a little dab of the putty that came with my Ischell. Neither putty has left a mark on my bass which has the hand-rubbed type finish - not the shiny lacquer.

2. I haven't had it produce any feedback at all yet - but I've not worked in a super loud environment - but certainly louder that 'dinner jazz'.

3. How well it stays put depends on the putty you use - the Ischell putty 'hangs on for dear life' put can be pealed off.
IF you leave the mic attached you have to come up with a way to secure the cable and XLR. I'm going to use a small bag or case attached to the back of the tailpiece. You don't want to permanently attach it as the supplied cable (about 6 feet??) is enough to reach my pre-amp which I place on a mic stand near me for easy adjustment.

BY THE WAY - AND NOT RELATED TO YOUR QUESTIONS, BUT WE ALSO USED THE AKG ON THE SOUNDBOARD OF THE GRAND PIANO AT THE GIG AND IT SOUNDED GREAT.

 

[shwashwa]

so whenever ive tried some sort of pickup mounted to the top of the bass the sound has always been uneven. somewhere on the web you can find a diagram of how the top vibrates and you can see that certain places are more responsible for certain frequencies than others. i think there are aslo spots that are more or less vibrationally "dead". maybe one of these spots is best for getting an even sound? have you had experience with this?

 

[rickwolff]

so whenever ive tried some sort of pickup mounted to the top of the bass the sound has always been uneven. somewhere on the web you can find a diagram of how the top vibrates and you can see that certain places are more responsible for certain frequencies than others. i think there are aslo spots that are more or less vibrationally "dead". maybe one of these spots is best for getting an even sound? have you had experience with this?

This is why those who have tried and use top mounted pickups or mics talk about finding the 'Sweet Spot'. I doubt there is any good substitute for trial and error and each bass is apparently somewhat different and unique. In my experience I have not experienced 'evenness' in sound or volume. Rather, I have found different locations to be brighter or darker.

I doubt that placing the contact mic over a 'vibrationally dead' spot would do you any good. If anything, it would kill or minimize any signal.

 

[richhansen]

Thanks for Rick Wolff and Hdiddy's reviews I'm also a convert to the Ischell club. Rick, your sound clips of the contact mics sound fantastic. That's what I call TONE.

Like anything, there are pros and cons to the Ischell. I found that I had to experiment with many locations on my bass to get a sound that I like and doesn't produce feedback. I probably went through 20 different locations until I found the sweet spot, which is just below the "#1" spot that Fisher Ischell recommends. Each time I tried a different location I had to re-roll the donut to ensure that it makes a complete seal to eliminate feedback, so that's a pain, and it definitely required patience and persistence, at least in my experience. OCD tone freaks like myself and Rick will attest to the fact that the time and effort put into this will pay off, however. I also think that the Ischell will add too much low end that can feed back if the mic is too close to the bass' body (proximity effect?) so mounting it a mm or so higher than the mounting shims put it seemed to work better for my bass. That putty on the Ischell is super strong, and holds it in place very securely. I find that I have to eq out a lot of the mids (my carved 1920's Juzek sounds great, but it does have more of a mid range hump than other basses I've tried, and the Ischell is also quite middy), but once I do, the tone is very nice and even. I compared it against my Ehrlund and my Troll, and to me it sounds better than my Erhlund (I've never been able to get rid of a certain "whiny" quality out of the Ehrlund with this bass), and it is very close in its tone to the Troll. The Troll sounds great, but being an open air mic, it does have feedback and bleed-thru issues that the Ischell does not have.

I recorded a rehearsal I did with a 6-piece jazz group, and the Ischell cut through the mix nicely. I'm doing a big outdoor festival this weekend with this same group, and we'll have a pro FOH sound system and sound engineers. I'll report back on how the Ischell does.