Muddy sound

[Spectre Gunner]

Tendinitis is I'm spelling it right. He played with a band on and off in the 60's

It is tinnitus which is a sound that does not exist in the real world but is perceived only within the brain. It is typically related to hearing loss and the source is not from the ear but is solely generated within the brain which is generating an artificial noise or sound to compensate for what it can not hear naturally.

Tinnitus is loudest when the room is silent. When you have tinnitus some background noise is a good thing.

Most people describe it as a ringing sound but everyone perceives it in their own way and what they hear isn't necessarily a ringing sound. It is not curable but it is manageable.

Tinnitus isn't the problem but the inability to hear a certain frequency range is. How can someone accurately set a proper EQ by ear when they lack the ability to hear the full frequency range? If they are making corrections by ear then they are likely making it sound good to them but not to those with a full and complete hearing frequency range.


I was fortunate to have recently attend a class on tinnitus and how to deal with it; provided by the VA.

Best to get a sound check or verify the guitarist claims from someone with healthy hearing. I've no idea of your guitarist's hearing condition but these are some things to consider.

 

[gstaats]

And another question I have is are 15's known to have a muddy sound? I also have the new fender Adam Clayton all tube 50 watt bass amp and he gives me the same complaint with that amp as well.

Resounding "no". Driver design and enclosure design dictate how a cab sounds. The size of the driver (to an extent - keeping this in the realm of common 10-15" bass cab drivers), has very little to do with how it sounds. A 10" enclosure/driver combo can be voiced super low - like an ampeg 410HLF or not so low - like an Ampeg 410HE.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

"And another question I have is are 15's known to have a muddy sound?" YES!!!

However, before we sound the death alarm, on single 15's, it truly does come down to the enclosure.

Best advice: 4X10, minimum. Happy sound. Happy Life.

Not all 15's are the same and calling all 15's muddy is a generalization that a lot of folks will disagree with, including me. Depends on the 15. The Eden 115 and used to be 215 cabs come to mind as mudless cabs. The DNS-115 by DNA is anything but muddy. And, I sure wouldn't call the Mesa Subway 15's muddy either.

I toured with a nightclub group for 3-years in the early 70's starting with a 212 cab on my Fender Bassman and within 2 months I traded it in on a Standel piggy back amp with a powered bass reflex cab with 4 round ports mounted vertically next to the 15's. Yes the two 15's in the Standel sounded different than the two 12's in the Fender. They weren't as tightly focused as modern speakers are but they were far from muddy. Played about 750 performances with that group before we broke up.

The newer 15's still had that rounder sound than you get with 10's or 12's but they are not like the stuff we had in the 60's and 70's. And @Auspuff is spot on that it depends on the enclosure and how they are matched to it.

One bit of a warning though on 410 cabs. I have a great one and when I bought it in 2015 I though that was the last cab I'd ever have to buy. And then I started rolling it in at some small venues in the Seattle surrounds (brewpubs mostly) and the owners about had apoplexy. "Oh no", they'd say, "that's way to much for here. Use that 112 combo I have for you over in the corner". And of course they always had crap combos. I ended up buying an Eden EX-112 to use with one of my amps at small venues and it sounded so good I bought a second one. Then I'd use two of them at medium size venues, saving my 410 for large indoor venues, outdoor venues, and music festivals. So I already bought two more cabs after my 410.

Then I was accepted to the DNA Endorsing Artist group and bought a DNS-210 to use for both small and medium venues because no one looks twice at a bassist bringing in a 210. It's a particularly loud cab with 700-watts power handling, and ended up being my go-to cab for all indoor venues. So now my 410 is just used at outdoor venues and Music Festivals.

If I had it to do over, I would have bought the 210 first because most of the places we play are small and medium-sized venues. Then I would have bought a second 210 for outdoors and music festivals. I feed it with a DNA-800 amp which will put out up to 400-watts in my 8Ω cab. If I had a second one, I could add that and then have an 800-watt 410 when needed. As it is now, my 410 stays in the closet most of the time.

Another thing about good 210 cabinets. They often (not always) have the lowest and tightest bottom end of all the cabs from a manufacturer. My DNS-210 will play the fundamentals down to 34Hz. It's a full and very nicely focused bottom end. So the old saying of, "you need 15's to get the best bottom end" hasn't been true for decades now. They do have a different character to their sound, but often the 210's will deliver lower frequencies better. Having a modular set-up where you can take one cab most places and only pull out the second cab to make your rig into an 800-watt 410 when needed, is a really nice way to go.

 

[darwin-bass]

In 88 I had a Peavey TNT 115. Sounded boxy and could not be fixed with the onboard EQ. I built a larger enclosure for the 15" speaker and a separate box for the amp. The new speaker box gave better lows and the boxy sound was much improved.

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

His eq can be pushing yours into the mud.
He needs to eq out of your zone as well.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Tendinitis is I'm spelling it right. He played with a band on and off in the 60's

Ok, wait a minute. He played with a band in the 60's!

Firstly why is this guy so up in your knobs in the first place? Do you have equal freedom to go tweaking his EQ? How about judging his amp or gear? The first and only time I let a FOH engineers dial the sound they wanted for my amp it was absolutely gutted of all the supportive frequencies that drive a band. I was left with a thin tinny sound and immediately said a very firm "No". I pointed her in the direction of the drummer who had two subs next to his head and said "there's your mud puddle over there".

Everyone needs to work together to slice up the frequency pie. It's not any one component. It's not what brand bass amp nor is it the size of your speaker. It's the way the sounds work together or not. But the low end is your responsibility and you should judge what you want and think works. And 68 year old ears do not give me great confidence in relation to mud. First thing to go is your high frequencies so it's likely that he hears mud in just about anything. Bring in someone who has more understanding and clout to a rehearsal and pay them to help you sort this out.

 

[agedhorse]

In 88 I had a Peavey TNT 115. Sounded boxy and could not be fixed with the onboard EQ. I built a larger enclosure for the 15" speaker and a separate box for the amp. The new speaker box gave better lows and the boxy sound was much improved.

Note that the standard Peavey drivers used at the time (not BW or Scorpion) were low moving mass, very low compliance drivers with heavy mids. This was necessary because the bass amps of the day were low powered. Even the early BW's and Scorpions were low compliance and mid heavy compared with later models, but not as much so as the standard LF drivers.

 

[4StringDave]

In my experience, if I have a muddy sound it's usually the result of the guitarist having too much bass in his tone and/or having his amp on the ground...

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

My guitarist and I got into a discussion the other day about muddy sounds. He claims peavey was notorious for causing a muddy sound. I used to play out of a peavey 115 combo and he said that nothing I did could dial the mud out. 20 years later I got a fender rumble 800 stage and he loved the tone out of that amp. I also have an ampeg SVT vr with the 410 HLF heritage cabinet he likes and a fender bassman 800 he likes. He says that mids on a bass amp turned up cause the sound to be muddier and I always thought mids helped you cut through. It's weird. He always told me to turn down with the peavey when I could barely hear myself. With the ampeg I think I'm way too loud and he tells me to turn up. What are your thoughts on this? Is his argument valid? I had used 4 and 5 strings with the peavey.

What he means has nothing to do with tightening up your sound.

What he actually means is that you are drowning him out. You're causing mud because you and him are sharing the frequency range.

If you noticed at all by his preference in your rigs, he likes you scooped out. That gives him clarity, and you keep the low end strong. My guitar player thinks the same way. If you can hear the bass tone, you are crowding the mix.

I wouldnt worry about it much.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Years ago I briefly owned a 1x15 Peavey combo and it had nowhere near enough power to cut through a relatively loud band. Muddy? Maybe a little bit, but basically just extremely underpowered for my needs. Your Rumble 800 and SVT are in a completely different league.

Having said that, the Ampeg 410HLF is the most boomy and mid-scooped cab I've ever owned. If your guitar player loves your tone with that cab he probably likes a mid scooped bass tone with lots of deep lows (and also a bit of "zing" if you're using the tweeter). What genre of music are we talking about here? If it involves a "wall" of heavily distorted rythm guitar the bass probably NEEDS to be scooped to avoid things getting muddy. Heavily distorted rythm guitars need a bit of lower mid punch and the bass usually needs to stay out of those frequencies to avoid mud. It's hard to say without hearing your band but your guitar player might be right here. For most genres WITHOUT heavily distorted rythm guitars it's a different matter of course and a mid-scooped bass tone might not be the best choice (which is why I got rid of the 410HLF, it wasn't right for MY tonal needs). But there's no definitive answer here, if it sounds good it IS good.

Like others have pointed out the bass will also sound VERY different around the room (massive bass boost close to walls/corners, less defined tone if you're standing off-axis to the speakers, etc.). You might want to move around the room a bit and see how the bass tone changes. Make sure you also listen from the guitar players perspective. These threads often end up with lots of posts about the guitar player being deaf and the bass player being right but let's face it, that not ALWAYS the case (and of course it's impossible to know for certain without actually being in the room, hearing the band).

 

[BassAndCigars]

I always dug Muddy's tone.
What am I missing?

 

[el murdoque]

My guitarist and I got into a discussion the other day about muddy sounds. He claims peavey was notorious for causing a muddy sound. I used to play out of a peavey 115 combo and he said that nothing I did could dial the mud out. 20 years later I got a fender rumble 800 stage and he loved the tone out of that amp. I also have an ampeg SVT vr with the 410 HLF heritage cabinet he likes and a fender bassman 800 he likes. He says that mids on a bass amp turned up cause the sound to be muddier and I always thought mids helped you cut through. It's weird. He always told me to turn down with the peavey when I could barely hear myself. With the ampeg I think I'm way too loud and he tells me to turn up. What are your thoughts on this? Is his argument valid? I had used 4 and 5 strings with the peavey.

Your guitarist does not listen to the mix.
Your guitarist is listening to how their guitar sounds in the mix

 

[mrperkolator]

The constant ringing in the ears

I called the tinnitus hotline once. They didn't answer. It just kept ringing.

 

[GrooveTheory]

Tossing in a different perspective here... but are you always playing in the same room? Perhaps its not the bass, or the amp... perhaps its the room and/or each of your positions relative to the amps. And/or the placement of the amps in the room (too close to corners etc). I played in one rehearsal space for a while that was supplied with a decent (albeit heavy) amp. I brought various bass to the the same room over time, and no matter what I did, I could not fine "the spot". I ether got absolute mud... or I had to cut all the bass and the mids on the amp... which obviously sounded like ... well it didn't sound good. So I settled for the mud lol! Perhaps consider rearranging the amp placement/direction and see if that helps.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

My guitarist and I got into a discussion the other day about muddy sounds. He claims peavey was notorious for causing a muddy sound. I used to play out of a peavey 115 combo and he said that nothing I did could dial the mud out. 20 years later I got a fender rumble 800 stage and he loved the tone out of that amp. I also have an ampeg SVT vr with the 410 HLF heritage cabinet he likes and a fender bassman 800 he likes. He says that mids on a bass amp turned up cause the sound to be muddier and I always thought mids helped you cut through. It's weird. He always told me to turn down with the peavey when I could barely hear myself. With the ampeg I think I'm way too loud and he tells me to turn up. What are your thoughts on this? Is his argument valid? I had used 4 and 5 strings with the peavey.

'Depends on which mids and if you are playing by yourself or with a band. It also depend a lot on the amp and cab.

 

[darwin-bass]

Note that the standard Peavey drivers used at the time (not BW or Scorpion) were low moving mass, very low compliance drivers with heavy mids. This was necessary because the bass amps of the day were low powered. Even the early BW's and Scorpions were low compliance and mid heavy compared with later models, but not as much so as the standard LF drivers.

I have a faint memory the driver was a Scorpion but probably put in a smaller than optimal (for low extension) enclosure. At the time I did the box design I didn't understand all the ins & outs so I just made it bigger (2.5 cu-ft?), unsulated it, and cut a port for 45 Hz or something. Lows got fuller. Power handling probably went down. Who know. I just know I never liked that amp any my new enclosure made me dislike it less.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

One of my very first bass amps was a Peavy Combo 300 (210W without and extension cab) with a Black Widow 15" speaker and it sounded great. It was awkward to move at about 100 lbs with a single strap on the top though!

I don't think you can generalize that a specific brand or all speakers of a certain size are muddy.

One thing I have noticed with a lot of guitarists is that they build their sounds in their bedrooms and try to match studio recordings and make their sounds huge, when it is really not effective in a practice or live setting. If you are both competing for the same frequencies, you will sound muddy so you need to work together to compliment each other.

 

[Paul New]

Might the guitarist have hearing damage?

Are there any who do not?

 

[Marko 1]

2) Overdriving a speaker. Speakers distort when pushed hard. Bass guitar cabinets (because we have a crazy idea that we want to be able to transport them in cars) are made to be small and loud. The Physics doesn't allow this to go without punishment - what suffers is that bass guitar cabinets can't handle high power low frequency signals without creating harmonics. The lower harmonics (at 2 and 3 times the input signal) generally sound "musical". The 6th sounds OK, too. But the 5th, and especially the 7th can get ugly. 7 times 41 Hz (your low E) is 280 Hz (7 times an "F"'s fundamental is 300 Hz) - the lowest fundamentals on your bass (which sound glorious if well reproduced) won't go through a typical bass rig at high power without creating harmonics that are in the mud region. Folks on this forum use high pass filters, which solves the problem - it isn't the fundamentals themselves that sound like mud, but the byproduct of pushing them hard through a bass rig that creates "mud".

Wow, what great info.

I guess I'm doing something right by bringing plenty of cab (and watts, nothing struggles) and using a HPF, actually set kinda on the high side. Everyone says they can clearly hear every note I play.

Not to mention only one guitar player NOT EQed low, and only right-hand keys, nobody's competing in my (or each other's) sonic territory.

 

[RissKippery]

Muddy tones are a result of the EQ controls, your bass, your playing style, your rig, your strings, and so on. The way you play and what you play with will influence the final tone and if it is muddy sounding to YOU.

I think you are missing exactly what mid frequencies are causing mud and what frequencies are clashing with his. "Mids" are a broad term thrown around A LOT on Talkbass and it's not always clear what many of us are talking about.

This is how I view it:

• 200hz to 400hz is thick low midrange (Mud zone, typically)
• 500hz to 700hz is the nasal range (good for fullness of a bass tone)
• 800hz to 1khz is the upper midrange (string growl, pick growl starts here)
• 2khz to 4khz is the treble range. (Finger and pick style high end clarity)
• 5khz to 10khz is the ultra high range (fingerboard clarity, great for slapping, awful for distortion)

I feel like I saw this breakdown on a thread where someone was explaining the frequency knob an an SVT.