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Musicians who ARE sound professionals.

Slapstyle

Slapstyle

Dec 3, 2009
336
196
Maine
#1
So, I'm a sound guy. I do it for a living. It's what I went to school for. Now I teach audio at the Collegiate level. I worked hard, studied hard, and learned a lot. I may have learned more in practical application than I learned in school and I'm not an elitist who thinks school is the only way and if you didn't study audio, you don't know what you're doing.

Here's my thing though. As a performing musician, I sometimes work with sound guys. IT DRIVES ME BONKERS to see someone BEING PAID to do a mediocre or terrible job. A little ego driven maybe, but knowing I could do it a hundred times better just kills me. Anyone else deal with this? Stories and anecdotes?
 
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#2
I work hard, regardless of the level of pay or even how I'm treated, to put out the BEST POSSIBLE product because it's my resume. It's got my name all over it and seeing someone not trying, or just not even knowing what they're doing makes me crazy.
 
#3
Your approach, work hard no matter what, is the way to success. Those other guys will come and go, but they will always be there. It's just like with bands. There will always be crappy bands sucking up the bottom end of the market, we just have to accept it.

I own a company that does sound. We have worked, and are still working, very hard to brand ourselves as a company that does top notch work for top notch clients. Part of that includes knowing when to turn down work. Usually when a client is trying to get my price lower than what I am comfortable with for a given situation. Once they have experienced the way we run our jobs and then have to work with the hacks they understand why the price may be a little higher on our side of the street. But that is a different conversation.

As a musician, when faced with less than ideal situations I find that it's best to smile and just get through the day. Those other sound guys know who I am and I'd rather they just think that I'm a nice guy rather than try to correct everything that I would do differently. It's not my kitchen to cook in anyway. I will be helpful when needed however and I almost always bring a little kit of stuff for emergencies. DI, a mic or two, a few cables. Just in case.
 
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#4
Slapstyle said:
So, I'm a sound guy. I do it for a living. It's what I went to school for. Now I teach audio at the Collegiate level. I worked hard, studied hard, and learned a lot. I may have learned more in practical application than I learned in school and I'm not an elitist who thinks school is the only way and if you didn't study audio, you don't know what you're doing.

Here's my thing though. As a performing musician, I sometimes work with sound guys. IT DRIVES ME BONKERS to see someone BEING PAID to do a mediocre or terrible job. A little ego driven maybe, but knowing I could do it a hundred times better just kills me. Anyone else deal with this? Stories and anecdotes?
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It can happen anywhere in anything, not just music (for us to find somebody who is/are 100 times worse or better than us in something).
The better and the 'higher profile' the event/venue, the less likely you find the 'worse' case. I'd just accept it as normal thing in life, and try any best possible things I can do in that situation to achieve the best possible result, whatever it would be.
 
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#5
Yeah, this can definitely go in so many fields. I have the hardest time finding serious musicians in my neck of the woods. Lots of people want to be in a band, but don't want to put the work and effort forward, as if it's just going to happen out of nowhere. That, or they are just pumping out the same drivel that makes them sound like carbon copies of a single band.
 
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#6
monkeyland said:
As a musician, when faced with less than ideal situations I find that it's best to smile and just get through the day. Those other sound guys know who I am and I'd rather they just think that I'm a nice guy rather than try to correct everything that I would do differently. It's not my kitchen to cook in anyway. I will be helpful when needed however and I almost always bring a little kit of stuff for emergencies. DI, a mic or two, a few cables. Just in case.
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Couldn't agree more.

I guess, increasing my frustration is the fact that I'm always looking for more work, and always hustling to get the bills paid and there are these paying gigs out there filled by idjets and dingleberries. Not jealous, just frustrated and broke. It sucks when they don't know what they're doing. It sucks more when they don't care.
 
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#7
Slapstyle said:
...I guess, increasing my frustration is the fact that I'm always looking for more work, and always hustling to get the bills paid and there are these paying gigs out there filled by idjets and dingleberries. Not jealous, just frustrated and broke. It sucks when they don't know what they're doing. It sucks more when they don't care.
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If there's one thing the business world has taught me, it's that the right price to hire someone can very often out-trump the quality of other candidates. I've gotten insulting offers from companies I interviewed to work for before, so much so that I told them not to bother calling me, it was a waste of both our time. The "CIO" at that outfit had next to no real technical experience, he just knew how to crack a whip and shift blame very well. My resume and basic references to technical experience went way over his head. That segways into my next thought, it could be that the employer doesn't know they are hiring sub-par talent to run the sound board. With little experience or a bad ear, they might just use price as their only guiding factor. Shame though, I wish there were more sound guys like you out there!
 
#8
Slapstyle said:
Couldn't agree more.

I guess, increasing my frustration is the fact that I'm always looking for more work, and always hustling to get the bills paid and there are these paying gigs out there filled by idjets and dingleberries. Not jealous, just frustrated and broke. It sucks when they don't know what they're doing. It sucks more when they don't care.
Click to expand...

Last year I was booked to play at a local concert series as part of a duo as the opening act. We probably did 3 shows of the series. The sound company was one of the local bottom barrel guys. The weekenders that have day jobs, show up and play sound guy and drink beer the whole time. Mish mash of ratty old beat up gear. The results were not so great either.

Along the way I got a chance to meet the organizer of this event and just be cool and have conversation. We got a chance to bid an event for that organizer that included a lot of video content and stuff that was out of the other sound companies wheelhouse. Even though my price is way higher than the previous company they have seen the quality and got hooked. That organizer is now one of my biggest clients.

The point is that by not allowing myself to be emotional about the here and now, I was able to develop a relationship that has paid off greatly in the long run. But yes, I hate having to watch people work that don't care no matter what field it is in.
 
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#9
The percentage of people in any field that truly care about excellence is very small. Most care about how much money they can make today and the hell with the long term. Unfortunately, as musicians, many times we don't get to choose who runs sound and we are at the mercy of someone who hired the village idiot to try and save a few dollars.

There are so many variables it's hard to compare experiences - are you the headliner, opening act, small club large club, trio, 10 piece band, background music, dance music, concert music, 2 bands or 6 bands playing. I think that expectations need to be tailored to meet each of these situations. In general when we are headlining I'm very particular about how we sound; when we are the opening act, I pretty much take what I get and don't worry about it.

After 40 years of mostly unsatisfactory experiences with soundmen, I joined a regional band that has good working relationships with most of the soundmen we play with and we've been incredibly lucky. Most of the times when we have opened for national acts we've been given time to run through 2 or 3 full songs for our sound check and the sound has been fantastic out front and on the stage. I'm well aware of how fortunate we've been.
 
#10
It's also quite difficult to have an A rig capable of satisfying anyone's production rider and have a band's audio guy come in and totally butcher the band's mix, as I've had to deal with until recently with my career change that involves playing again. About half of the guys that come in with the national acts have no business behind a mixing console. But of course, when that happens, "well, this PA sucks" The question that knocks down that argument is "what specifically about it sucks?" Pretty much wraps up the conversation.

I'm in the process of building my own personal monitor rig (trying to decide between the Behringer X32 or the new Yamaha QL1, which is a good bit more money, but comes with an amazing feature set). It will start with my own mics, DIs, stands, cables, and sub snakes. This rig will go together in 10 minutes, hopefully done before the guys have their instruments in place. And I will hand the sound co a split for the PA and do our own monitors. Or bring my audio guy with an iPad to drive the PA from my console. Either way, after my 25 years in pro audio, I'm about making some consistency for the band.
 
#11
lfmn16 said:
Unfortunately, as musicians, many times we don't get to choose who runs sound and we are at the mercy of someone who hired the village idiot to try and save a few dollars.
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IME most local bands do the same, I've pretty much given up doing sound for the locals as even when I cut them a BIG break they act like I'm ripping them off :rollno:. No way am I going to compete with the $75 guys :dead: .
 
#13
I am not a sound engineer, but have worked with quite a wide variety of SEs in my life. I can easily see the difference between the capable ones and the inept ones. It's funny, the inept ones always seem to be the ones who challenge the performers about how they want to work, the good ones try to work with how the player wants to work (what DI, use a mic, stage volume, etc) while the great ones accommodate the players happily and seemingly effortlessly. The difference is staggering.
 
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#15
lord but this is a tired topic...

personally I view incompetent soundmen in my market as targets of opportunity...

When I'm stuck behind one of their systems though, I do the best I possibly can to help them work through the issues. it doesn't do my band OR my sound company any good to not do my absolute best.
 
#16
Geri O said:
(trying to decide between the Behringer X32 or the new Yamaha QL1, which is a good bit more money, but comes with an amazing feature set).
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Tough decision. Both are really decent looking boards, though I have no experience with either. People tend to shy away from Behringer stuff but their boards have always treated me well. I'll never play through a Behringer bass amp, but that's a different story. Good luck with your decision. Personally, I don't think 16 inputs is enough for me. I could use the whole board on a drum kit but I tend to be a "squash a spider with a sledgehammer" kind of guy. You don't really need that much in a live situation.
 
#17
I should have elaborated and mention that if I were to go the QL route, I'd have to have a Rio 1608 to go with it. Which is turning into a good bit of money. One reason I'm considering the QL is the potential to rent that rig to my boss, who's pretty well invested in the CL/Dante stuff. And it's all rack-mountable.

However, the X32 line has some good possibilities in that direction as well.

Decisions, decisions...it's just money, right?..:)
 
#18
Slapstyle said:
So, I'm a sound guy. I do it for a living. It's what I went to school for. Now I teach audio at the Collegiate level. I worked hard, studied hard, and learned a lot. I may have learned more in practical application than I learned in school and I'm not an elitist who thinks school is the only way and if you didn't study audio, you don't know what you're doing.

Here's my thing though. As a performing musician, I sometimes work with sound guys. IT DRIVES ME BONKERS to see someone BEING PAID to do a mediocre or terrible job. A little ego driven maybe, but knowing I could do it a hundred times better just kills me. Anyone else deal with this? Stories and anecdotes?
Click to expand...


Thank you! I often complain about sound men and get the typical reaction of how they are there to do their job and I should try harder to work with them. But working with a bad soundman is like working with a bad musician who is leading the band. And you're at their mercy!

So many soundmen simply do not understand music very well. ESPECIALLY BASS. They fiddle with dials and blindly attempt to not make it sound horrible. Their usual solution is to have the bass turn down on stage so that it's inaudible. Then they add tons of low end, equating that with , well...BASS. Bass is a register not a frequency!!! It need to be clear, not boomy!

Now you got me started.

Anyway, I really appreciate a good soundman. They make all the difference. But so many, especially at the club level, are just dabblers who want to be involved in music but weren't talented enough to play an instrument .

Chet Baker had a great quote -- he said, "It takes a really good drummer to be better than no drummer at all." I can say the same about soundmen. 90% of them just make the sound worse and hinder the performance. Professional soundmen deserve more respect. It isn't something that any fool can do.
 

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