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Musicman SUB Bass: Will it become collectable?

#41
Well, what is an active SUB really?

Despite what's painted on the headstock, a SUB is really a low-end StingRay. It has the original StingRay pickup, the original StingRay preamp and 2-band EQ, the original StingRay bridge, the original StingRay slab body shape, it was made in California in the same factory as the StingRays, and the SUB necks are cut on the same machine w/ the same program as the current 'Rays.

What's different? The body is poplar instead of (ash?), the slab body is less comfortable than the new contoured 'Rays, the headstock is painted instead of matching the body color, there's no series/parallel/single-coil switch (added one to mine though!), there's no phantom coil, the back of the neck is painted instead of being hand-rubbed (which could be remedied with sandpaper and about two day's worth of serious work). The faux-metal pickguard is ugly, but the matte-black replacement pickgaurd for the 5-string looks nice. It has this odd industrial-looking finish.

I never understood how, with all the StingRay components, Ernie Ball could manage to sell the SUB at the price and make money. There *is* a rumor that they couldn't and that EB lost money on each SUB that went out the door...

fenderhutz said:
Define increase in value. These were selling in the high 300 low 400 range online used and on these forums two years ago. Now the go for usually over 500. <...> I think the value of these will creep up over time, but never to insane multi thousand collector status. Even though I love mine, it's not a sunburst Gibson or Fender. It's ugly. :)
Click to expand...

I agree, think that the active SUBs will generally retain a value a bit less than that of used SRs. Used SRs seem to be selling about $900-$1200 these days, depending on year and condition. The SUBs seem to be going for about $500-$580 for an active 4 and about $600-$675 for an active 5 these days. The SUBs were only made for a short time, were an insanely good value for the money, there weren't enormous numbers made, so all the necessary elements are in place for the SUBs to increase some in value in the future. But I'd think always somewhat less than a full Stingray.

I wouldn't call the finish ugly, I think it's more humorous. The gloss blue version looks industrial up close but more than about three feet away and it starts to look pearlescent in the way it reflects light. Its a funny optical illusion. The finish never needs to be polished, it doesn't readily show dirt or fingerprints, it seems tough. Kind of a working-musician vibe rather than a piece-of-art vibe.
 
#42
The SUB reminds me of the pre EB Stingray,with the slab body & 2 band eq. And it's a whole lot cheaper than the Classic Stingray, & like Moriebass said it was made in the same factory as the flagship Stingrays.

There was a thread somewhere of a SUB that the owner done up to look like a Classic Ray & it looked very good.
 
#43
I think they could increase in value. At the extreme end, something like the Les Paul Jr., which was Gibson's answer in the 50's and early 60's to the high price of the real thing is analogous - thinner body, 1 pickup instead of 2, simpler finishes and hardware.

The Fender Musicmaster bass was also originally a cheaper model of the Mustang, and while it is not as collectible as a Mustang or P or J from that era, it has appreciated in price.

Moreover, there is a love for American-made quality basses that even shows through in the uptick in Peavey T-40 prices. I don't see a big run up in prices on SUBs, but they should hold there value and they will be fun to play in the interim.
 
#47
In case any of you were wondering, I ended up buying two SUB 5 basses. One I picked up for $475 and flipped for $575. The other one I bought new (it was old stock) and still have it. It sounds great, has a nice slim neck and at 9.5lbs it's the lightest fiver I own. It's on my "do not sell list" - at least for now. ;)

SUB2.jpg
 
#48
Over time, most instruments that have any quality at all will appreciate over time. Buying it right is the key to making money if that is your goal. I can remember when I wouldn't pay $400 for a black 3 bolt Strat and now they are north of $4k- and they were close to total crap; the necks shift, they are heavy, etc.

What drives their pricing is the fact that the older models became too expensive for most to afford so the 3 bolts filled the demand gap.

I just looked at the newest issue of Vintage Guitar Magazine and in their Price Guide section they say a 1999 Ibanez SR-305 is worth between $500-$525 in today's market. Those were not great basses back in the day (although the 800/805 was a game changer when it came out in the late 80's) but here it is worth $500 or so. Go figure.

If you are going to chase investment grade in a player's budget you need to find rarities- true transition pieces that do not conform; older examples would include mid-1959 Strats that could be found with 10 screw pickguards, no initials on the end of the neck and variations on the early slab boards.

Another more pertinent example would be getting a SWR SM-400 that had all the features of the SM-400S but did not have the new silkscreen on the faceplate. Speakers like the SWR 4x8 that only had a couple of hundred units (if that many) or the SWR Mr. Tone Controls Parametric EQ (less than 50 units per Daryl).

I have not paid enough attention to how instruments and amps have evolved lately but I am sure there are plenty of more relevant and recent examples that others can come up with. I think GK has had some really low numbers in some of the neo series as well.
 
#49
When I got mine back in April for the amazing price of £99.99 aprox $153, I could'nt buy a Squier Affinity or SX new for that.
So to get an American made bass by a respected company,& using most of the same parts I could'nt loose. I still think the SUB will be a sleeping collectable bass in years to come,as has been said your getting an EBMM Stingray.
 
#50
I have both, SUB and SUB Sterling, active. I dont know if i am right (i think i am), but they were making those from 2003 to 2006 only, and they quit because as they said, they were loosing money on each and every of them. I personally dont mind the textured finish on them. As for the instruments, they are great value. Sure, they dont have comfy cut, limitations in pickups switching and made from poplar. But damn, they are american made and they sound EXTREMLY close to expensive Stingray and Sterling.
 
#51
I've always been a big Stingray guy with at least one variant of MM in my collection for the last 25 years. I had a passive SUB 5 for a while, but dumped it after one gig. I started that particular night with my regular '05 'Ray, then plugged in the SUB 5 for set two. While the tone was definitely of the EBMM family, it was lumpy and indistinct (particularly the low B) compared with my Ray. I used the SUB 5 for the opening tune and quickly switched back. That said, I found it quite comfortable to play and would buy another SUB without hesitation -- provided it was active. To me, the active models sound FAR better than the passive.

Will they become collectable or valuable? I frankly doubt it, as there are just too many things that people find NOT to like about them (the finish, the cardboard faux aluminum pickguard, lack of body contours, odd colours, etc).

And, of course, there's a difference between "collectable" and "valuable." Someone mentioned JV Squiers, which are certainly collectable and great basses (I owned several), but they'll never approach the value of the MIA models they were so carefully modelled after. Similarly, I own a pretty cool Peavey Palaedium bass that probably qualifies as "collectable," but its current value is about half what they originally sold for so it's hardly valuable.

What I'm finding lately with EBMM basses is that the price of garden variety Rays and SR5s has dropped quite a bit lately. This is probably partially due to the '08 crash but also, I suspect, because Ernie Ball has come out with a number of new models that have created a lot of interest (Big Al, Reflex and the Game Changer concept, plus the budget Sterling By Musicman line, which appeals to folks who want a BRAND NEW Ernie Ball bass for reasonable dollars). Around here (Toronto), used 4-string Rays that sold for upwards of a grand three years ago now go for $750-$900. And used SR5s have dropped from the $1000-$1200 range to around $900. In fact, I bought my last one, a fretless '94 SR5 H that weighs 9 1/4 lbs and sounds gorgeous, for six bills plus a $300 trade-in allowance for a Reverend MIK guitar I decided didn't work for me. That, to me, is far better value than the $500 I paid for the barely used SUB 5 I mentioned off the top -- and also far more likely to hold its value over the long term. In fact, I'll probably pick up a couple more used MMs over the next year if prices stay somewhat depressed. Don't know about their collectability and don't really care, but the value, at current prices, can't be beat if you're a Musicman fan.
 
#53
They already ARE collectible, imho. Limited run? Check. American? Check. Enviable pedigree? Check. Built like a brick pumphouse? Check.

I've got mine dialed in & am actively looking to pick up more SUB5's as I can afford them. I have access to a private EBMM collection (not mine) and I assure you, they hold up very well in a side-by-side comparison. Plus no fugly SR5 pickguard! SUB5 FTW!
 
#54
Jamo2000 said:
They already ARE collectible, imho. Limited run? Check. American? Check. Enviable pedigree? Check. Built like a brick pumphouse? Check.

I've got mine dialed in & am actively looking to pick up more SUB5's as I can afford them. I have access to a private EBMM collection (not mine) and I assure you, they hold up very well in a side-by-side comparison. Plus no fugly SR5 pickguard! SUB5 FTW!
Click to expand...


Which reminds of another characteristic in the SUBs favor. EBMM has a large and dedicated following (and rightfully so.)

If someone wants a complete EBMM collection, they will need at least one SUB.
 
#55
Well, I love my SUB. It's collector status has been ruined, but that's okay. It has been refinished, contoured, real MM tuners added, and had a Nordstrand pickup wired in series put in.

Comparing it to my 3 band EQ Stingray is almost embarrassing. Even though the 3 band Ray also has the same pickup and hardware, the SUB kills its more expensive brother. Maybe thats a function of the 2 band preamp. Fretwork on both is equal... perfect. Setup? Great, no issues. Theya re both great instruments, but the sea-foam green monster is my absolute favorite bass to play.

Here they are, side by side.

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Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]
 
#56
I have had several MM bases & I regret that I once own a fret-less and fretted StngRay in a matching set which I foolishly sold.
Only my opinion; I see various issues with price-rise issues & value. Overall quality, rare or unique configuration, "buyer desirability", & origin.
The SUB was made in the USA; however it was made as a "player's Bass"; not as a high-end instrument "studio-refined". It may certainly keep it's value, but if a significant price rise is seen it would be decade(s) from now. The fact that it's a "less than $1000 USA-made instrument" plays some role in it's sale, but it was made to play and to take with the individual (note it's body finish, etc).
A 5 string MAY see a higher rate of return than a 4. A unique element such as it being signed or owned by someone may play a role as well.....but basically I can't see it being a serious investment instrument. The MIJ (Japanese Fenders) are somewhat similar. They would not LOOSE value; but as an investment, it would be smarter to buy almost anything pre-CBS. There are too many competing Music Man basses and frankly; too many Music man musical instruments in general for a "value unit" to see a healthy rise in value. The ORIGINAL Music Man's will always have a steep price rise due to rarity. The total later-made units number in the tens of thousands. This issue is very similar to coin collecting or similar issues.
 
#57
resurrecting this thread since im in the market for one, well im buying one friday. It was interesting to see that at the time this thread was created most didn't think the SUB basses would a good investment and increase in price. well to anyone that has research price these basses have been increasing in value. what that being said do you think these basses are a good investment or not?
 
#58
Stumbled across this old but interesting thread. Considering it's now several years on.
I think the usa ebmm sub basses are becoming somewhat sort after, they seem to have a small following. Although there a long way off being a collectable if ever.
They are very well thought of by most bass players it seems. The hard wearing industrial like finish is seen as perfect for a working instrument. And they do sound like a ray due to some of the same components being used. Making them a good cheaper alternative or backup, if able to be found.

They do seem to of held there used prices or maybe slightly increased it seems.
 
#59
If you like an instrument, buy it and play it. If it appreciates in value, so much the better. I've got more in each of my bass guitars than I could ever sell them for, but each one has its place in my gigging life. That's enough for me.
 

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