Double Bass "Muted" Piano Sound on Jazz Recordings?

[Turn Em Loose]

This is something that has bugged me for a long time. Wellll...Not really "bugged". More like intrigued.

I notice on a lot of older/classic recordings the piano has a sort of muted tone to it. Like the mute pedal was engaged. Top end attenuation and the piano seems to sit further back in the mix than say, the bass and drums.

Not being a jazz expert by any means, I couldn't tell you if there's a particular period/label I associate this with. It does seem, to me, to be present in many different recordings from different artists. Here's an example from Invalid Link Removed. Doesn't it seem like the piano is sort of muted, tone-wise? I've heard many many other recordings where the piano sounds, to me, like more of a....Well...a piano. For lack of a better term.

Is this a tone/recording technique associated with a particular genre or time period? Or is this just me?? Give it to me straight. I can take it.

 

[Carl Hillman]

This is something that has bugged me for a long time. Wellll...Not really "bugged". More like intrigued.

I notice on a lot of older/classic recordings the piano has a sort of muted tone to it. Like the mute pedal was engaged. Top end attenuation and the piano seems to sit further back in the mix than say, the bass and drums.

Not being a jazz expert by any means, I couldn't tell you if there's a particular period/label I associate this with. It does sdeem, to me, to be present in many different recordings from different artists. Here's an example from Invalid Link Removed. Doesn't it seem like the piano is sort of muted, tone-wise? I've heard many many other recordings where the piano sounds, to me, like more of a....Well...a piano. For lack of a better term.

Is this a tone/recording technique associated with a particular genre or time period? Or is this just me?? Give it to me straight. I can take it.

It's likely that you are referring to the Rudy Van Gelder piano sound. That Cannonball side was recorded in the living room of Van Gelder's parents' house in New Jersey.

I'm pretty sure that he close miked the piano (likely with the top down, and covered) to prevent "bleed" into the other microphones. It also sounds compressed and EQed with some high end rolled off. I'm guessing he was trying for more "presence" in the piano sound, and rolling off the high frequencies so it wouldn't conflict with the sonic space the horns occupied.

It's definitely a very quirky and identifiable piano sound, and it's on many, many records from that era.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

It's likely that you are referring to the Rudy Van Gelder piano sound. That Cannonball side was recorded in the living room of Van Gelder's parents' house in New Jersey.

I'm pretty sure that he close miked the piano (likely with the top down, and covered) to prevent "bleed" into the other microphones. It also sounds compressed and EQed with some high end rolled off. I'm guessing he was trying for more "presence" in the piano sound, and rolling off the high frequencies so it wouldn't conflict with the sonic space the horns occupied.

It's definitely a very quirky and identifiable piano sound, and it's on many, many records from that era.

Wow! Thanks! That's really great info.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

What Cannonball side, when I click on the link it goes to a Chet Baker recording.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Additionally, when you talk about a piano "sounding more like...a piano..." what recordings are you talking about? In addition to recording techniques, the instruments used in studios for recordings for small, low budget jazz labels (Riverside, Emarcy, Prestige, even Blue Note) weren't premier concert instruments. The piano on those classic Blue Note records is a Sohmer baby grand. Some of the early Monk records, the bloody thing isn't even in tune.

So yeah, a Steinway or Bosendorfer sounds better than a Sohmer.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

What Cannonball side, when I click on the link it goes to a Chet Baker recording.

Huh. Goes right to Love For Sale off Somethin' Else for me?

That was just one example I could think of off the top of my head.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

Additionally, when you talk about a piano "sounding more like...a piano..." what recordings are you talking about? In addition to recording techniques, the instruments used in studios for recordings for small, low budget jazz labels (Riverside, Emarcy, Prestige, even Blue Note) weren't premier concert instruments. The piano on those classic Blue Note records is a Sohmer baby grand. Some of the early Monk records, the bloody thing isn't even in tune.

So yeah, a Steinway or Bosendorfer sounds better than a Sohmer.

I'm thinking of a baby/full grand piano. To my ears a "more piano sound" means more "open and airy" with more top end. More down low, too. Like how a piano sounds if you're sitting in the same room as it's in when it's being played. If that makes sense. To me the other instruments, on Love For Sale ferinstance, sound more like they would if you were in the same room as them.

To me it's not better or worse. Just curious. I guess the quality of the instruments, the recording techniques and the EQ/studio gear of the day all come into play.

I think to myself, "If they could get a bunch of top end out of the horns and kit, why not the piano?" But it makes sense to cover the piano if it's not isolated from the other instruments. That never occured to me.

 

[two fingers]

Hammers of a piano can be "voiced". In essence, this means the tip of the hammer will be softer and rounder ..... like most American and European pianos..... or firmer and sharper like most Asian quality pianos (Yamaha and Kawai).

Also, much like many of our bass heros are known for a dead flats on a P bass or dead strings and high action on the double bass sound, many studio pianos would have hammers (and possibly strings) that are simply worn.

Then there's technique. Some years back I attended a jazz festival that featured both George Duke and Joe Sample. Duke sat at the piano and it was bright and loud. Once Sample sat down to the same piano, it became a sweeter sounding instrument. It was quite magical actually. Even non musicians around us noticed that it sounded defined, and yet somehow not as "harsh".

Full disclosure: I sold pianos for several years. Mind you, I played only (barely) well enough to get them out the door. But I picked up on what it takes to affect the timbre of one as much as one can.

 

[shwashwa]

I don't like the van gelder piano sound either

 

[Don Kasper]

It's likely that you are referring to the Rudy Van Gelder piano sound.

Did I once read that RVG also miked that piano from "underneath" the instrument, not just from "inside and above" the strings, OR, am I having a Senior Moment?
I'm sure y'all will let me know.
Thanks.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Did I once read that RVG also miked that piano from "underneath" the instrument, not just from "inside and above" the strings, OR, am I having a Senior Moment?
I'm sure y'all will let me know.
Thanks.

Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't recall seeing this anywhere.

RVG was notoriously cagey about how he went about doing things though. I wouldn't have put it past him to spread disinfo just to throw wannabe imitators off the scent.

 

[Michael Karn]

Pretty sure Rudy kept the lid at full stick at Hackensack and Engelwood, at least until well into the digital era. And his cageyness was reserved for the booth, where he definitely did not want people closely observing his equiptment and what he was doing with it

 

[rickwolff]

Did I once read that RVG also miked that piano from "underneath" the instrument, not just from "inside and above" the strings, OR, am I having a Senior Moment?
I'm sure y'all will let me know.
Thanks.

Wow, Don,

What an opening. I just can't resist. A 'Senior Moment'????? Do you have any other kind these days? LOL

 

[Carl Hillman]

Pretty sure Rudy kept the lid at full stick at Hackensack and Engelwood, at least until well into the digital era. And his cageyness was reserved for the booth, where he definitely did not want people closely observing his equiptment and what he was doing with it

Every picture I could find agrees with you. Mostly shots of large Neumanns and massive boom stands up close, with the lid all the way up.

I did find one reference to him wrapping a mic in foam and putting it directly on the harp of the piano...but, of course he would neither confirm nor deny that he did this, and there's no visual evidence of it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Playing and recording both have so many variables that it's hard to say what it is about the RVG sound that makes it that way. But there is definitely a difference in recording techniques from the signature sounds of the 50's-60's onward. FWIW, I much prefer the more modern piano sounds of Jarrett et. al recording era to the older classic recordings. It reminds me that even when the player is the same the recordings can sound completely different sonically, like comparing the 1955 and 1981 Goldberg Variation recordings by Glenn Gould (I prefer both the sound and musicianship of the later recording, BTW). These days it's really common to start with a pair of Earthworks omni mics inside the piano and supplement with other mics at a greater distance to blend in. That's a completely different stereo field than a pair of large diaphragm cardiod pattern mics outside the piano no matter how you arrange them.

In the end, it's all just taste anyway, which is subjective. And if the playing is good enough, none of it really matters.

 

[Michael Karn]

I did find one reference to him wrapping a mic in foam and putting it directly on the harp of the piano...but, of course he would neither confirm nor deny that he did this, and there's no visual evidence of it.

I think I saw one picture of the lid either on the half stick or closed, but it was a much more recent picture. I recorded there twice but both times were with organ so I never got to see his piano micing in person. There was a thick yellow line on the floor in the booth that demarcated his (restricted) area from the rest of the room, and you knew it was your ass if you got too close to it, let alone crossed it

 

[Michael Karn]

Here it is

 

[Selim]

It’s totally subjective of course, but I love what Rudy did with horns and drums. Piano... not so much.

From that same era, I enjoy the Contemporary records piano sound in general.

 

[Selim]

Speaking of Cannonball’s Something Else - was this stereo recording done in Hackensack or Englewood Cliffs?

I was under the impression that it was all Mono in the living room?

 

[Michael Karn]

Speaking of Cannonball’s Something Else - was this stereo recording done in Hackensack or Englewood Cliffs?

I was under the impression that it was all Mono in the living room?

Not sure about stereo or mono but it was made in Hackensack