mutitrack recorders

[stjohn1299]

yeah, my big think is I don't want to take one route, and after spending lots of money, realize I made a mistake. Probably my best solution is to ultimately think of what I want to someday record down the road, and that would be high quality original material by the band. If that's the case, the DAW path may be the correct one. That may be especially true now that fewer and fewer MTR's have hard drives readily available on the secondary market. That's a huge drawback there. It's too bad MTR's weren't designed to use plug and play external drives. As they are, if they lose a hard drive, the whole unit's toast, or at least that's how it appears to be from my research.

 

[bassbrad]

I've been using a Tascam 2488/2 for a couple of years now and am very pleased with the quality of the recordings and the ease of working on the machine. 8 simil inputs is the only issue but you'd spend a whole lot more money to get more out of a DAW system.

 

[BulbousMoses]

yeah, my big think is I don't want to take one route, and after spending lots of money, realize I made a mistake. Probably my best solution is to ultimately think of what I want to someday record down the road, and that would be high quality original material by the band. If that's the case, the DAW path may be the correct one. That may be especially true now that fewer and fewer MTR's have hard drives readily available on the secondary market. That's a huge drawback there. It's too bad MTR's weren't designed to use plug and play external drives. As they are, if they lose a hard drive, the whole unit's toast, or at least that's how it appears to be from my research.

A lot of MTR's are now using SD cards to record to and these cards now have sufficiently high capacity (32GB) that you get a a resonable amount of recording time. And one other thing to consider is the portability factor. If you ever think you will want to record your gigs (or someone elses), then dragging a full fledged DAW to a show is impractical and a pain.

 

[skywalkersurfs]

I have some questions for you PC users. How do you go about muting your monitors (if you are recording in the same room as the performer) to try a take, and have a listen while at the same time having the performer listening through headphones and the "engineer" listening through headphones? What piece of hardware accomplishes this for you? The reason I ask is, we try lots of takes listening to the sound of mic placement etc. etc. and make adjustments before we actually try for a real take. I couldn't imagine unplugging the monitors out of the computer and plugging in headphones every time to accomplish this. Also, do you use your personal PC that's in the house, or do you have two? One for recording and one for personal use?

 

[Slowgypsy]

Zoom R24 uses an SD card. 32g... that's a lot of recording time. Put an ART microphone splitter in front of it and recording a gig is easy. Actually very easy. Or use the R24 as the mixer for your PC. I'm loving mine, using it almost daily, and I'm not a recording person. Just my $.02.

 

[pbass2]

I understand the notion that somehow using a MTR "might" get you tracking sooner than later, but speaking as someone who makes a living composing/producing, and grew up using MTRs, etc., you're simply going to be short-changing yourself in this day and age using an MTR as opposed to a DAW/computer rig--alot. I mean, a whole LOT. There simply is no comparison to the expandability, flexibility, upgrade-ability--heck, you-name-it. Stability and reliability are not an issue once you get used to working in that world. I have two studio rigs and a portable one, and a bootable backup in my backpack I can fire up nearly anywhere on a computer of similar spec--impossible with a MTR. And those MTRs are overpriced dinosaurs . .
Just my rant . . .

 

[pbass2]

A lot of MTR's are now using SD cards to record to and these cards now have sufficiently high capacity (32GB) that you get a a resonable amount of recording time. And one other thing to consider is the portability factor. If you ever think you will want to record your gigs (or someone elses), they dragging a full fledged DAW to a show is impractical and a pain.

You can take a MacBook or MacBook Pro loaded with Logic, Protools, etc and any external USB or Firewire audio interface you desire that works with your rig(and there are legion . .)--cheapo or high end--to a gig and easily record--it's done all the time. Can't get more portable or flexible than that. Plus, then it's all in the box ready to produce, master, edit(in other programs if needed), load onto another rig, convert formats, drop(and edit to picture) into a video---whatever. And 32GB is gonna run out REAL fast--that's crazy skimpy for audio. . . heck, you can get an external 1TB drive for $100 or so now.

Why limit yourself when it's so accessible and affordable these days to use gear that will help make you competitive in a pro capacity?


My second rant

 

[BulbousMoses]

You can take a MacBook or MacBook Pro loaded with Logic, Protools, etc and any external USB or Firewire audio interface you desire that works with your rig(and there are legion . .)--cheapo or high end--to a gig and easily record--it's done all the time. Can't get more portable or flexible than that. Plus, then it's all in the box ready to produce, master, edit(in other programs if needed), load onto another rig, convert formats, drop(and edit to picture) into a video---whatever. And 32GB is gonna run out REAL fast--that's crazy skimpy for audio. . . heck, you can get an external 1TB drive for $100 or so now.

And you suggestion would still requires me to take more gear with me that I currently do. I hear what your saying but please remember, what you are suggesting here is MUCH more expensive than a small portable MTR. If you have the budget for a MacBook, then great but a lot of folks are budget constrained these days. I know I am.

 

[pilmat]

I just picked up the new Zoom R8 (very little brother of the R24) and am quite impressed with the little sucker. Is it anywhere close to a DAW: NO!

Horses for courses: the R8 fits easily in my gig bag, has a few wizzo features (FX, rhythm machine w/pads, foot control (option), etc.) and is stupid simple to use. It is great for laying down ideas and the internal mics make it versatile in all kinds of situations.

But for anything "serious", I still go back to Record on my MBP through an Apogee Duet2...

 

[brianrost]

How do you go about muting your monitors (if you are recording in the same room as the performer) to try a take, and have a listen while at the same time having the performer listening through headphones and the "engineer" listening through headphones?

Most computer audio interfaces let you mute the speakers with a button or will have separate volume knobs for speakers and headphones. If you're using an outboard mixing board, again most of them let you mute the send to the speakers.

As far as turning off the computer monitor which is what I think the earlier post suggested (and I agree with), just hit the power switch on the display or close the window!

 

[fingerbun]

And you suggestion would still requires me to take more gear with me that I currently do. I hear what your saying but please remember, what you are suggesting here is MUCH more expensive than a small portable MTR. If you have the budget for a MacBook, then great but a lot of folks are budget constrained these days. I know I am.

Actually, in Australia I think I could but together an 8 track DAW for about what I would spend on the Zoom R24. Assumes I already own P?C or buy it 2nd hand.

Prices may be different elsewhere.

 

[BulbousMoses]

I just picked up the new Zoom R8 (very little brother of the R24) and am quite impressed with the little sucker. Is it anywhere close to a DAW: NO!

Horses for courses: the R8 fits easily in my gig bag, has a few wizzo features (FX, rhythm machine w/pads, foot control (option), etc.) and is stupid simple to use. It is great for laying down ideas and the internal mics make it versatile in all kinds of situations.

But for anything "serious", I still go back to Record on my MBP through an Apogee Duet2...

Fair enough. Reading my previous posts, I think I was unclear on my position. DAW's are more powerful, period. Having said that, MTR's still have a place in the recording world as portable scratch pads/demo tools/live recording devices. I can throw my DP 008 in my gig bag..can't do that with a laptop. A previous post suggested that a 32GB SD card was a skimpy amount of storage..I don't agree with that. The Roland VS880 came with a 20GB hard drive back in the day and I have personally heard whole projects recorded only to it's internal hard drive. Sounded great to me.

One last point for thought. More tracks do not necessarily mean a better recording. I've heard many projects over the years where the person doing the recording layered track upon track and had upwards of 24 tracks on a song. And it sounded like crap because they didn't EQ and pan things properly..levels were off..all kinds of problems. On the flip side, I've heard songs done with 3 tracks that sounded absolutely brilliant. In many ways, recording is like playing. Very talented players can pick up a cheap crappy instrument and make it sound great. In the same vein, an astute and experienced engineeer can use even a small 4 track MTR to great effect if he or she knows how to squeeze the maximum performance out of the gear.

 

[brianrost]

I'll be 100% honest here: I started with analog tape, went through digital MTRs (Boss BR864, BR900, Tascam 2488) before arriving at the computer (MacBook with Ableton Live).

For tracking and doing rough mixes, the MTR wins...period. Just less to set up before you can hit the red button. While the 2488 was rather large, the Boss is smaller than a laptop and the new Zoom R series are also tiny. Then there's those really microscopic machines like the Tascam DP and Boss Micro BRs. Of course most are not truly standalone, you eventually have to take your mixes off the MTR's storage media (hard drive or memory card) and transfer to a computer to burn CDs or make mp3s unless the unit has a CD-R drive.

For mixing and "mastering" computers win because they have many more toys to play with. Of course, you need a computer (doh) and then an audio interface and software. You may find mixing with a mouse a PITA, then you have to get into buying control surfaces, etc. In my case I spent $200 more for my interface and software than I did for my 2488, so I certainly wasn't saving any money! On the other hand, you can buy interfaces bundled with software in the $100-200 range that work well (limited to recording 2 tracks at a time...8+ will run you $400).

If you add MIDI sequencing into the equation, the game changes. The MTRs of the last few years have dropped MIDI altogether because they are aimed at (doh) folks recording "real" instruments and vocals.

Anyway if your application is hobbyist instead of pro, demos instead of commercial releases, then an MTR can do the job and I'd recommend it. Good mikes in a good room will be 95% of the sound anyway, the better the source is the closer I get to just pulling up faders and that's the mix

Since I am a hobbyist when it comes to recording, there are times I think about pulling the Boss out of storage if only for tracking.

 

[brianrost]

I should add that MTRs are all very guitar/bass friendly. FX/amp sims, start/stop and punch-in pedals, ryhthm tracks, etc. Plug in bass, plug in phones, hit red button...

My DAW has no tuner but my Boss does...

 

[BulbousMoses]

Anyway if your application is hobbyist instead of pro, demos instead of commercial releases, then an MTR can do the job and I'd recommend it. Good mikes in a good room will be 95% of the sound anyway, the better the source is the closer I get to just pulling up faders and that's the mix

+1 The vast majority of home studios are hobby studios. For me, if I really wanted to produce a professional, commercial CD, I'd just book studio time and bite the bullet.

 

[Slowgypsy]

At the end of the day it come down to what tool works best for a persons particular financial and work needs. I own a Pro Tools/Mac Book Pro set up. First rate professional capability. I also own a Zoom R24.

True, the Zoom doesn't have the capability of the Pro Tools set up. But if I'm going to record one of my groups gigs, there's no way I'm going to bring the Pro Tools setup. (1) way more expensive, and in a NYC small venue type setup this will either "walk" or get something spilled on it. (2) Playing bass is a full time activity, but also running a recording station at the same time really taxes my abilities. The Zoom is simply easier to handle in that situation.

Now, if I'm going to record someone, or one of my projects in my studio, and the expectation is to get the recording as high quality as possible... my Pro Tools/Mac Pro gets the nod.

The moral of this story.... get both.

 

[devilock76]

yeah, my big think is I don't want to take one route, and after spending lots of money, realize I made a mistake. Probably my best solution is to ultimately think of what I want to someday record down the road, and that would be high quality original material by the band. If that's the case, the DAW path may be the correct one. That may be especially true now that fewer and fewer MTR's have hard drives readily available on the secondary market. That's a huge drawback there. It's too bad MTR's weren't designed to use plug and play external drives. As they are, if they lose a hard drive, the whole unit's toast, or at least that's how it appears to be from my research.

Have you considered the Zoom R16 or R24? They are standalone multitrack recorders that are also DAW interfaces. They use removable media for recording (SD I think) can record standalone as a multitrack recorder or be connected to a computer via USB and act as both an audio interface and control surface. That might be the best of both worlds for you. The only drawback is some find the Zoom Pre's to be a little lacking in audio quality.

This will give you the best of both worlds in my opinion. You get the portable standalone unit with swappable media that is readily available as well as the means to quickly switch to working on a computer and the wealth of options that opens. I believe the Zoom comes with a light edition of Cubase.

I don't own the unit. I am a Linux DAW kind of guy and use a Presonus Firepod. I basically traded software expense for my time and technical skills to make it work. I am in IT as a day job though so...

Ken

 

[stjohn1299]

I have looked at the Zoom, but not close enough.

Are PCI-based AI's still considered the fastest of the three connection methods? I know at one time they were, and Firewire was wrought with issues. It seems as though a TI firewire card has solved that problem. The Focusrite Firewire has caught my attention, because of the the connections and ability to daisy-chain, but also because the pre's are supposedly very good. Has anyone used this in conjunction with a mixer? I'm pretty adamant that I want a mixer-based DAW if I went that route. I know the M AUdio Delta 1010 would connect to a mixer, but I'm wondering if the Focusrite would as well and be just as connectable plus add some extra benefits the 1010 doesn't.

I would like to have the ability to record our gigs as well. Do you guys connect your MTR through one of the buses going out of the mixer and record that way, or do you try to bus out of each channel so every sound source has it's own channel. We use every bit of a 16 channel (XLR channels) mixer between drum, cab, and vocal mics. If I tried to get every mic isolated, that would be a big daddy MTR...I'm not even sure I have found anything that comes close to 16 track simultaneous recording in the MTR world.

 

[devilock76]

I have looked at the Zoom, but not close enough.

Are PCI-based AI's still considered the fastest of the three connection methods? I know at one time they were, and Firewire was wrought with issues. It seems as though a TI firewire card has solved that problem. The Focusrite Firewire has caught my attention, because of the the connections and ability to daisy-chain, but also because the pre's are supposedly very good. Has anyone used this in conjunction with a mixer? I'm pretty adamant that I want a mixer-based DAW if I went that route. I know the M AUdio Delta 1010 would connect to a mixer, but I'm wondering if the Focusrite would as well and be just as connectable plus add some extra benefits the 1010 doesn't.

I would like to have the ability to record our gigs as well. Do you guys connect your MTR through one of the buses going out of the mixer and record that way, or do you try to bus out of each channel so every sound source has it's own channel. We use every bit of a 16 channel (XLR channels) mixer between drum, cab, and vocal mics. If I tried to get every mic isolated, that would be a big daddy MTR...I'm not even sure I have found anything that comes close to 16 track simultaneous recording in the MTR world.

PCI will probably always be the best. I don't think any universal format will ever take its place, just come close.

That being said Firewire, even on Linux, works great for most hobbyist to semi pro circumstances. USB even 2.0 and 3.0 just won't cut it as the track count and quality increases. Not as much a matter of bandwidth as it is the way the data flows.

Not sure what you mean by a "Mixer" based daw. I am assuming you mean where when using the daw you can do most of your basic mixing actions through a real tactile feel mixer board like scenario. That being said there are really two options.

1. An all in one unit where it is a control surface + AI + true mixer (pre amps and faders affect direct audio in each channel. These can actually be used as standalone audio mixers. These are VERY expensive usually. Presonus and Mackie have stuff like this that I think is upwards of the $2000 range and on. Also you could go for a digital mixer like the Yamaha 01V line where you can send the audio over ADAT lightpipe andhave a lightpipe interface on the computer. This would not act as a control surface though. Oh and of course there is the Zoom R16 and R24 answer, cheaper, not as many options, and probably not as good on the mixer pre's.

2. The other way is do it separate. This is probably much cheaper and opens up options on the used market as well. In this case you need 1 (audio interface) probably something rackmount like say the Firepod I used or similar. You will also need a mixer, and of course the control surface. USB is fine for a control surface. Of course this is more to haul if you are mobile but really for mobile and your own band the mixer doubles as a stage mixer so you probably would bring that anyway. Also the control surface can be left at home for recording mobile as it really only comes into play when mixing.

Now for my purposes. At home I use the Firepod just about direct. There are volume knobs for each channel. At some point I plan to get a control surface but for now using the mouse and keyboard does the job. I don't really need a mixer with the firepod as it has about the control a simple rackmount line mixer would have. Now that being said I am just now reclaiming my office space in the house so probably will incorporate my Akai 8 channel MIDI programmable rack mixer into the setup. It has recording in's and outs on each channel so that is probably how I will use it. Not sure yet, still in redesign phase. I like Firewire as it translates across all platforms and of course works well when we are talking laptops. I can daisy chain it if I had multiple units as well.

Part of my decisions come down to Linux though. I have to work within the frame work of gear I know is compatible with Linux and trust me that is a smaller subset of the available gear out there when it comes to audio interfaces. It is not as limited as it used to be but I can't go in a GC or SA and just grab something off the shelf, even if it does work in Linux it won't say so on the back. I have to go research and find out if it has and preferrebly find someone who has actually made it work if I can. What I have tried to do is pick things that are proven performers in both Linux and Mac as one day I will probably switch to Mac.

I will mention one other thing. This year Mac has released a new data port technology on their machines. Forget the name but it is supposed to be the replacement to firewire and they are going to start getting Audio Interfaces on the market for it. Just something else to think about.

Ken

 

[pbass2]

And you suggestion would still requires me to take more gear with me that I currently do. I hear what your saying but please remember, what you are suggesting here is MUCH more expensive than a small portable MTR. If you have the budget for a MacBook, then great but a lot of folks are budget constrained these days. I know I am.

I certainly don't mean to imply money is no object--feeling the squeeze myself these days--and yes, it will cost a bit more initially to set up a laptop/DAW rig, but for example, you can buy a used laptop: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Then you can find an older copy of Logic: Amazon.com: Used and New: Apple Logic Studio [OLD VERSION]
An audio interface is another story of course, but again, go used, scratch and dent--I have an old Firebox I use for my mobile rig, but there's newer ones that are better and for around 250-300 bucks or less used: Amazon.com: Used and New: PreSonus FireStudio Mobile

Then you're on your way to a very upgrade-able (if you so desire) and flexible rig(there's so many different plug-ins, etc. you can use, etc.). And really, you're only bringing one more piece than you would with an MTR (if you're recording to the computer's drive as opposed to an external drive).