mutitrack recorders

[devilock76]

I certainly don't mean to imply money is no object--feeling the squeeze myself these days--and yes, it will cost a bit more initially to set up a laptop/DAW rig, but for example, you can buy a used laptop: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Then you can find an older copy of Logic: Amazon.com: Used and New: Apple Logic Studio [OLD VERSION]
An audio interface is another story of course, but again, go used, scratch and dent--I have an old Firebox I use for my mobile rig, but there's newer ones that are better and for around 250-300 bucks or less used: Amazon.com: Used and New: PreSonus FireStudio Mobile

Then you're on your way to a very upgrade-able (if you so desire) and flexible rig(there's so many different plug-ins, etc. you can use, etc.). And really, you're only bringing one more piece than you would with an MTR (if you're recording to the computer's drive as opposed to an external drive).

To compare and contrast I will specify my Linux mobile daw setup. I am not trying to say one is better than the other just the extreme low cost I was able to purchase this but the "work" I had to do to set it up. Ok to most techs this is not a ton of work but still.

1. Used Toshiba laptop with Firewire, 1.8 ghz dual core, 200 gig HD, 2 gigs of RAM (low spec'd by most modern requirements but Linux is remarkbly efficient when done well) - $250

2. Used Presonus Firepod - $125

3. External Passport HD, 500 gigs (this is necessary, you need your recording drive and your OS drive to be separate for best results with Ardour) - $80 (new at a Walmart)

OK so what did I have to do, Install Fedora 14 (soon I am switching to Arch linux for this machine but a linux newbie would get a conniption over that), install the Planet CCRMA repos to get a realtime kernel. Install Jack Audio server, Firewire drivers, Ardour and other music prrograms, cost was nothing, open source you know, unless you count my broadband connection and a blank cd for the initial OS install image.

I wrote a couple of custom scripts to force the processor into performance mode to avoid any CPU scaling issues and made tweaks to system permissions. After that it was fine tuning FFADO and Jack for the best latency from the Firepod with no Xruns. I can get it down to 2 ms on this setup easily. With all 8 tracks recording.

Bottom line is for less than $500 and about an afternoons worth of time I got everything I need for a mobile computer based MTR/DAW. That includes the price of the computer itself.

Ken

 

[BulbousMoses]

To compare and contrast I will specify my Linux mobile daw setup. I am not trying to say one is better than the other just the extreme low cost I was able to purchase this but the "work" I had to do to set it up. Ok to most techs this is not a ton of work but still.

1. Used Toshiba laptop with Firewire, 1.8 ghz dual core, 200 gig HD, 2 gigs of RAM (low spec'd by most modern requirements but Linux is remarkbly efficient when done well) - $250

2. Used Presonus Firepod - $125

3. External Passport HD, 500 gigs (this is necessary, you need your recording drive and your OS drive to be separate for best results with Ardour) - $80 (new at a Walmart)

OK so what did I have to do, Install Fedora 14 (soon I am switching to Arch linux for this machine but a linux newbie would get a conniption over that), install the Planet CCRMA repos to get a realtime kernel. Install Jack Audio server, Firewire drivers, Ardour and other music prrograms, cost was nothing, open source you know, unless you count my broadband connection and a blank cd for the initial OS install image.

I wrote a couple of custom scripts to force the processor into performance mode to avoid any CPU scaling issues and made tweaks to system permissions. After that it was fine tuning FFADO and Jack for the best latency from the Firepod with no Xruns. I can get it down to 2 ms on this setup easily. With all 8 tracks recording.

Bottom line is for less than $500 and about an afternoons worth of time I got everything I need for a mobile computer based MTR/DAW. That includes the price of the computer itself.

Ken

Impressive. I run Linux at home on 3 of the 4 computers. My own PC is a low end eMachines laptop that is a couple of years old. I'm wondering if it could be used as the basis for a Linux DAW. What minimum system requirements would you suggest in such a scenario?

 

[pbass2]

To compare and contrast I will specify my Linux mobile daw setup. I am not trying to say one is better than the other just the extreme low cost I was able to purchase this but the "work" I had to do to set it up. Ok to most techs this is not a ton of work but still.

1. Used Toshiba laptop with Firewire, 1.8 ghz dual core, 200 gig HD, 2 gigs of RAM (low spec'd by most modern requirements but Linux is remarkbly efficient when done well) - $250

2. Used Presonus Firepod - $125

3. External Passport HD, 500 gigs (this is necessary, you need your recording drive and your OS drive to be separate for best results with Ardour) - $80 (new at a Walmart)

OK so what did I have to do, Install Fedora 14 (soon I am switching to Arch linux for this machine but a linux newbie would get a conniption over that), install the Planet CCRMA repos to get a realtime kernel. Install Jack Audio server, Firewire drivers, Ardour and other music prrograms, cost was nothing, open source you know, unless you count my broadband connection and a blank cd for the initial OS install image.

I wrote a couple of custom scripts to force the processor into performance mode to avoid any CPU scaling issues and made tweaks to system permissions. After that it was fine tuning FFADO and Jack for the best latency from the Firepod with no Xruns. I can get it down to 2 ms on this setup easily. With all 8 tracks recording.

Bottom line is for less than $500 and about an afternoons worth of time I got everything I need for a mobile computer based MTR/DAW. That includes the price of the computer itself.

Ken

Very cool! Yeah, man, if you don't go out and buy the latest/greatest everything (like Apple would have you do) you can really save a ton. Since this is my job I stay pretty current as far as DAW versions and OS, but it's truly not THAT necessary. And, every machine we've got here in the studio I bought used or refurbished.

 

[stjohn1299]

Yes, I meant a true mixer to use with my DAW to operate real faders instead of mouse clicks. I've seen setups where pretty much any mixer will work, so I don't need to go the uber expensive route.

For you guys using something like the zoom MTR or 2488, do you use them to record live gigs? If so, how do you connect to your mixer? I would rather leave my home setup at home, and not carry it back and forth, so mobility is not an issue with the main studio. It would be nice however, to have some means of recording gigs. Maybe I should leave that side of it to the singer to finance, lol.

 

[Slowgypsy]

Yes, I meant a true mixer to use with my DAW to operate real faders instead of mouse clicks. I've seen setups where pretty much any mixer will work, so I don't need to go the uber expensive route.

For you guys using something like the zoom MTR or 2488, do you use them to record live gigs? If so, how do you connect to your mixer? I would rather leave my home setup at home, and not carry it back and forth, so mobility is not an issue with the main studio. It would be nice however, to have some means of recording gigs. Maybe I should leave that side of it to the singer to finance, lol.

I've used my Zoom R24 to record many dozens of my live gigs. I run a DI from my bass amp to the Zoom. I mic the guitar amps. Keyboard via DI. All vocal mics go through my ART microphone splitter... one out goes into the Zoom, the other out goes to the PA.

 

[5StringFool]

I found a Boss BR1600 when I was getting my stuff together. As others have said it, as well as other MTR's doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a DAW, but for my investment (which was only $650) I now have a machine that will do 8 track simultaneous recording much better than my cheapo PC could ever dream about.

It would be nice to have a DAW setup, but if I waited until I could afford the equipment to do that it would have been years before I would have had my project studio setup. As it is now I was able to get up and running for about $1000.

 

[BulbousMoses]

I found a Boss BR1600 when I was getting my stuff together. As others have said it, as well as other MTR's doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a DAW, but for my investment (which was only $650) I now have a machine that will do 8 track simultaneous recording much better than my cheapo PC could ever dream about.

It would be nice to have a DAW setup, but if I waited until I could afford the equipment to do that it would have been years before I would have had my project studio setup. As it is now I was able to get up and running for about $1000.

That's kind of where I'm at. I can wait and save and in a couple of years, get a DAW setup going but I have things I want to record now and I can make it happen with a MTR. Perhaps it's a stop gap solution but it's better than nothing.

 

[devilock76]

Yes, I meant a true mixer to use with my DAW to operate real faders instead of mouse clicks. I've seen setups where pretty much any mixer will work, so I don't need to go the uber expensive route.

For you guys using something like the zoom MTR or 2488, do you use them to record live gigs? If so, how do you connect to your mixer? I would rather leave my home setup at home, and not carry it back and forth, so mobility is not an issue with the main studio. It would be nice however, to have some means of recording gigs. Maybe I should leave that side of it to the singer to finance, lol.

Well keep in mind that external mixer will only control audio in and audio out, not actual fader movement on the screen which if you master internally will be important. For that you need a control surface.

Ken

 

[devilock76]

Impressive. I run Linux at home on 3 of the 4 computers. My own PC is a low end eMachines laptop that is a couple of years old. I'm wondering if it could be used as the basis for a Linux DAW. What minimum system requirements would you suggest in such a scenario?

It varies. I mean you could make a neat music studio out of a netbook. You will have limitations though. You can make a neat production studio that you could use a small usb interface on for two track audio on a netbook. I have done that. The only netbook draw back is there is not enough horsepower with the atom processors to do much Realtime work. They just can't handle that. I mean you could do some real time midi instruments but realtime effects processing will be limited at best. Yes I have actually used a linux laptop for live FX processing like stompboxes at one point.

If you want to do multitrack recording though I would say any reasonable Dual core will definitely do it. If not a dual core then with the most current software I would like to have near 2.5-4 ghz. Ram wise 1 gig is probably the minimum, 2 gigs and up better. As for HD space, well best bet is have one HD for the OS and an external or dual for media recording. Especially with Ardour, the way it requests disk access requires the seperation of drives from program to recording media.

The biggest concern often though is not specs but your interface selection. You have to shop around to find something that works on Linux. If you are seriously interested check out Invalid Link Removed where much smarter people than I taught me what I needed to know to do this.

Also Linux flavors. There are pre-canned studio distros like say Ubuntu Studio. Now I am not a fan of Ubuntu studio but it is probably one of the easiest and best ways to first try Linux audio.

I personally use Fedora right now. The reason for that choice was Fedora/Redhat/CentOS experience and at the time I was maintaining CentOS servers. Now I have migrated to FreeBSD for servers so to maintain some semblence of synchronicity (BSD's don't have the firewire drivers I need, so it would be an experiment at best to recompile them for BSD) I am thinking of Switching to ArchLinux. With Fedora and Arch you have to customize yourself and add a realtime kernel to make it really smoke.

The key to a lower spec'd machine will be going for less eye candy in things like your Window Manager. I often use Fluxbox which is an extremely low resource WM and it smokes.

Ken

 

[devilock76]

Very cool! Yeah, man, if you don't go out and buy the latest/greatest everything (like Apple would have you do) you can really save a ton. Since this is my job I stay pretty current as far as DAW versions and OS, but it's truly not THAT necessary. And, every machine we've got here in the studio I bought used or refurbished.

I always calculate it as my choice to use Linux over Mac is trading my time as opposed to spending money. If I had less time and more money or wasn't proficient in the tech already I would probably choose mac. And one day I might still choose mac. I do miss Logic Audio. I was a big fan of it when it was on PC's. Bottom line is I prefer to use *nix operating systems as much as possible so I tend to avoid Windows, even though I still have to deal with Windows machines every day.

On a side note there is a plugin converter for Ardour that you can buy (not very expensive though) that will export to Protools format so you can transfer work in Ardour to other studios.

Ken

 

[stjohn1299]

Well keep in mind that external mixer will only control audio in and audio out, not actual fader movement on the screen which if you master internally will be important. For that you need a control surface.

Ken

Gotcha....I kinda figured it was that way, but wasn't completely sure. Ultimately, no matter what I end up with between DAW or MTR, I would like to use a fair amount of outboard gear as well...including a mixer.

 

[devilock76]

Gotcha....I kinda figured it was that way, but wasn't completely sure. Ultimately, no matter what I end up with between DAW or MTR, I would like to use a fair amount of outboard gear as well...including a mixer.

Compared to a good audio interface a good mixer only adds tactile control. In which case you could just go audio interface and control surface. Gives you the control onto the programs themselves. In a studio with a lot outboard gear though a mixer + patch bay will make cable routing nightmares a lot easier to deal with if planned accordingly.

I am the type of geek that did full studio wiring schematics before I started. It helped in my mind though. This might also be why I always like Logic Audio.

Ken

 

[fingerbun]

I always calculate it as my choice to use Linux over Mac is trading my time as opposed to spending money. If I had less time and more money or wasn't proficient in the tech already I would probably choose mac.

That's a fair comment but I'd also say the Linux based tools I tried weren't as powerful as Protoola or Logic but I haven't tried Ardour.

I have read that it is also possible to install Cubase on Linux via the Wine windows emulator.

 

[Revvv]

Tascam 2488 NEO. That is all you really need. I use this over pro tools all the time.

 

[pbass2]

I always calculate it as my choice to use Linux over Mac is trading my time as opposed to spending money. If I had less time and more money or wasn't proficient in the tech already I would probably choose mac. And one day I might still choose mac. I do miss Logic Audio. I was a big fan of it when it was on PC's. Bottom line is I prefer to use *nix operating systems as much as possible so I tend to avoid Windows, even though I still have to deal with Windows machines every day.

On a side note there is a plugin converter for Ardour that you can buy (not very expensive though) that will export to Protools format so you can transfer work in Ardour to other studios.

Ken

Yeah, for me, I've been using Logic since the very beginning, and I'm just so entrenched in it I simply can't change at this point and still get my work done. Not to say that I like everything that's happened to it since Apple got their mitts on it . . . but what you get with Logic now for what, $500 or so, is really incredible if you think about it (at least to me it is--I remember the oooooold days).
Your comment about transferability is one reason why I always advocate folks jumping into the DAW world and not messing with an MTR if they can swing it---it just opens the door to many more ways to work on music--you can collaborate very easily on music with other folks(remotely from anywhere), do bass sessions at home, mix other people's music, master, write music to video, you name it, all "in-the-box".

 

[BulbousMoses]

It varies. I mean you could make a neat music studio out of a netbook. You will have limitations though. You can make a neat production studio that you could use a small usb interface on for two track audio on a netbook. I have done that. The only netbook draw back is there is not enough horsepower with the atom processors to do much Realtime work. They just can't handle that. I mean you could do some real time midi instruments but realtime effects processing will be limited at best. Yes I have actually used a linux laptop for live FX processing like stompboxes at one point.

If you want to do multitrack recording though I would say any reasonable Dual core will definitely do it. If not a dual core then with the most current software I would like to have near 2.5-4 ghz. Ram wise 1 gig is probably the minimum, 2 gigs and up better. As for HD space, well best bet is have one HD for the OS and an external or dual for media recording. Especially with Ardour, the way it requests disk access requires the seperation of drives from program to recording media.

The biggest concern often though is not specs but your interface selection. You have to shop around to find something that works on Linux. If you are seriously interested check out Invalid Link Removed where much smarter people than I taught me what I needed to know to do this.

Also Linux flavors. There are pre-canned studio distros like say Ubuntu Studio. Now I am not a fan of Ubuntu studio but it is probably one of the easiest and best ways to first try Linux audio.

I personally use Fedora right now. The reason for that choice was Fedora/Redhat/CentOS experience and at the time I was maintaining CentOS servers. Now I have migrated to FreeBSD for servers so to maintain some semblence of synchronicity (BSD's don't have the firewire drivers I need, so it would be an experiment at best to recompile them for BSD) I am thinking of Switching to ArchLinux. With Fedora and Arch you have to customize yourself and add a realtime kernel to make it really smoke.

The key to a lower spec'd machine will be going for less eye candy in things like your Window Manager. I often use Fluxbox which is an extremely low resource WM and it smokes.

Ken

My laptop is spec'd as follows

eMachine E625
AMD TF20 1.6 GHZ CPU (single core)
3 GB DDR2 Ram
160 GB Hard Drive
Two USB 2.0 ports
8x DVD Burner

Currently running Ubuntu 10.04 LTS

Sounds like my machine might be a bit thin at the CPU end for audio processing..

 

[fingerbun]

My laptop is spec'd as follows

eMachine E625
AMD TF20 1.6 GHZ CPU (single core)
3 GB DDR2 Ram
160 GB Hard Drive
Two USB 2.0 ports
8x DVD Burner

Currently running Ubuntu 10.04 LTS

Sounds like my machine might be a bit thin at the CPU end for audio processing..

Costs nothing to try it. Don't upgrade your OS though, the latest Ubuntu is incredibly bloated

 

[mixtapelove]

you might check out the Zoom R24. I love mine. It's very powerful.

+1

I have an R16 and it does absolutely everything I want.

 

[devilock76]

That's a fair comment but I'd also say the Linux based tools I tried weren't as powerful as Protoola or Logic but I haven't tried Ardour.

I have read that it is also possible to install Cubase on Linux via the Wine windows emulator.

Depends how we define power. Third party bells and whistles that cost, no they aren't there. The latest and greatest hardware support, no not there.

However if we define power by a system streamlined to do a task most efficiently, well Linux can excel in that regard for many applications, especially music.

Yes it is possible. The Wine page should list the versions known to work. I have gotten everything from Itunes, to Reaper, to Ableton to run in Wine with varying levels of success. Wine can be an overhead issue though with some of those especially if custom setup of Direct X is required.

Ken

 

[devilock76]

Yeah, for me, I've been using Logic since the very beginning, and I'm just so entrenched in it I simply can't change at this point and still get my work done. Not to say that I like everything that's happened to it since Apple got their mitts on it . . . but what you get with Logic now for what, $500 or so, is really incredible if you think about it (at least to me it is--I remember the oooooold days).
Your comment about transferability is one reason why I always advocate folks jumping into the DAW world and not messing with an MTR if they can swing it---it just opens the door to many more ways to work on music--you can collaborate very easily on music with other folks(remotely from anywhere), do bass sessions at home, mix other people's music, master, write music to video, you name it, all "in-the-box".

I loved Logic Audio, and when they went Mac only I clung to that last version for a while. I dabbled with Magix and yes I know not the same as Logic but especially at the time they copied a lot of the Logic interface cues I liked. Finally I said well I do so much in Linux anyway let's see if I can do this in Linux as well.

Ken