Double Bass my Realist and Full Circle comparison

[Chris Fitzgerald]

String tension seems to be, IME of course, the biggest determining factor as to whether a bass sounds good amplified or not. The more tension, the better a bass amplifies. Some (not me personally, but many other bassists) argue that the less tension on a bass, the better it sounds acoustically. If this is true, the only real solution seems to me to be to split the difference based on what your needs are.

I'm fortunate that I like relatively high tension strings anyway, so I don't have too many issues with this. One factor which can help is to experiment with strings which are high-"ish" tension, but which have some other factor like synthetic core or dampening materials that helps darken them. As always, YMMV and YMWCB.

 

[Uncletoad]

"I tried a bass the other day that was louder than a mother. I put it through the little Poly and it sounded like ****." PW

This is the conundrum, aint it? This is why I went all the way in both directions; nice uprite that sounds great acoustically and OK minimally amped, and an upritey thing made to be amped that sounds great on its own terms. I'm always amused by the guys who buy a string bass, mute any and everything that vibrates so they can run it through an SVT, and don't realize that all they've accomplished is the creation of a crappy EUB.

Sort of. My ply Cleveland dressed up for really loud playing sounds way better than any EUB I've played. The strings do respond to the structure no matter how dumbed down you make it. In my experience the EUB is good for travel or other times when space is at a premium but I'd rather play a strapped down Cleveland if I have the space on stage and in the truck.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

Thanks for all the responses.
I guess if you play 'strictly' jazz the Realist might be a good choice, since it has much bottom end. if you are more into a fusion/Stanley Clarkish articulated sound you might be better of with a Full Circle.
But then again Eddie Gomez has an articulated sound and he uses a Realist I think.

I think your assessment is basically correct in terms of style/application, but I have had a different experience concerning frequency response.

I have both pickups on my bass, a 7/8 Gagnon with a deep sound. I can A/B them pretty effectively. I find that the FC has a TON of low end, moreso than the Realist. It also has more on the top, but not obnoxious like some "closer to the strings" PUs can be. So overall it is more full range. I also find it responds better to EQ adjustments. The Realist has no highs, a lot of mids, and reasonable lows on my bass. The thing it does better is the thump at the front of the note, which I guess might occur in the low mids. Similar to what many have experienced, I find the FC more usable as the volume gets higher, where the Realist tends to get muddy/boomy. YRMV!

I don't know what Eddie uses now, but he's going to sound like Eddie regardless.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I started out in the olden days. (no more remarks, Clinker!!) No amps. Yes the bridges where higher and yes the basses were louder because of that plus a whole lot more pulling power.

I tried a Fishman with my Underwood, (which I like because on the fiver I have a transducer on both bridge wings to cover the G and low B.) but found the Fishman a bit too "live" for the five. I've found the Underwood the only PU to PU all five strings in an even fashion on this particular instrument.

 

[SAlcott]

"....I'd rather play a strapped down Cleveland if I have the space on stage and in the truck."

No truck-subway.

 

[Rayzorx]

Although I have used Obligatos their low end never seemed solid to me. Their tone has been more middy on my basses. When they go dead, the low end seems to go first.
I do think the Full Circle is the safer recommendation of the two because is has much of the Realist's goodness without the risk. The Realist really captures the low end and woodiness of my old flatback though and I have used it successfully in loud situations without feedback.

Clink:
This is exactly what I'm experiencing with the Oblis. The E/A are dead and the D/G still have bark. I'm thinking I'll try the Evahs + FC combo and see how that sounds recorded.

 

[Les Fret]

I think your assessment is basically correct in terms of style/application, but I have had a different experience concerning frequency response.

I have both pickups on my bass, a 7/8 Gagnon with a deep sound. I can A/B them pretty effectively. I find that the FC has a TON of low end, moreso than the Realist. It also has more on the top, but not obnoxious like some "closer to the strings" PUs can be. So overall it is more full range. I also find it responds better to EQ adjustments. The Realist has no highs, a lot of mids, and reasonable lows on my bass. The thing it does better is the thump at the front of the note, which I guess might occur in the low mids.

Yes, I totally agree that the FC responds better to EQ adjustments. I think that is because it has a broader frequency spectrum.
On my bass the Realist has much more bottom than the FC. But in combination with the Platinum Pro (flat settings) the FC has more bottom than without the preamp whereas the Realist has more or less the same frequencies with or without the preamp.

 

[massimo]

"I don't know what Eddie uses now, but he's going to sound like Eddie regardless"
i met Eddie Gomez one year ago and on his Kay (yes , he uses a Kay assembled with parts from different old Kays) he had both the FC and the Gage . I asked if he could play half of the show (in duo with a pianist i don't remember the name) with Fc and half with a Gage so i could hear the difference and he said yes. Naturally he sounded great on both : clearer on Fc and "guttier" on the Gage. I preferred the Gage because i prefer an old school sound (but it was not muddy at all). I'm also convinced that a good Kay is easier to amplify than a complex sound with many lows. Amp was GK head + old Hartke 4x12, spirocore strings.

 

[Marc Piane]

Yup. Dave Holland used a Realist for a minute and guess what... he sounded like Dave Holland,

 

[nikolai poopius]

Realist advertises a good response for both pizz and arco. Have any arco players tried both pickups?

 

[Les Fret]

yes, I have tried both arco.
Wasn't to happy with either of them.
The Realist sounded too muffled and the FC to nasal for my taste.
Another problem is that arco playing is always much louder than pizzicato.
I think no pickup sounds really good for arco. At least none that I know.

 

[Uncletoad]

yes, I have tried both arco.
Wasn't to happy with either of them.
The Realist sounded too muffled and the FC to nasal for my taste.
Another problem is that arco playing is always much louder than pizzicato.
I think no pickup sounds really good for arco. At least none that I know.

Please understand that the performance of any pickup is very bass dependant. I'm sure through whatever you are using to amplify your bass sounds as you describe but the overall response of a given pickup depends on the bass and what you are plugged into. The Full Circle and the Realist on my bass sound excellent arco through the Focus into the VL208. With arco strings like flexocor it sounds even better than with the Spirocores I usually use. Not as good as a good mic but excellent nonetheless. I prefer the full circle overall because it's pizz performance is better for my style, but I could use either one and be happy with it.

The most difficult thing about amplifying the bass is they all are different and respond to the same pickups in very different ways. What is good for my ply bass sounds terrible on the old bass and vice versa. You have to experiment with a rediculous amount of combinations to find the right one.

Having said that in the end I agree that nothing sounds better than the bass acoustically. Any attempt to make it louder via electric means diminishes it. Modern expectations of volume and crowd coverage require electricity and frankly I think we are not better off for it. They say volume allows for nuance where acoustic performance sacrifices nuance for power. Bing Crosby vs. Povarrotti. Perhaps. Perhaps but Povarrotti was full of dynamic range in a way that Bing, although beautiful, could never match. I think maybe the listener has gotten lazy. I would suggest that it's the listener that has been beaten up by electric volume rather than the performer enhanced by it.

Our attempts to make this beautiful natural sound loud to compete with subwoofers and THX certified surround sound have diminished its richness. While we are not to be faulted for it, the music listener is surely shortchanged from it. We have to address the expectations of our audience and the "Re-invention of the Upright Bass" thread points that out in stark terms.

I don't want to sound critical, I'm not. I'm a leading culprit. I spend scads of money and time and energy converting that beautiful old instrument’s sound into electricity to keep up with the demands of the people coming to hear me perform. I reduce this glorious old box to 600 watts and a handful of small speakers so it’s loud as hell but sounds like ****. As I sit in the bar and warm up acoustically I inevitably get people coming up saying things like “my god that thing sounds beautiful”. After the show the comments are “you rock”.

Look for a more detailed discussion of this on my blog. It's gotten me thinking about a whole mess of stuff.

...but I digress. Pickups suck and the realist and the full circle aren't bad.

 

[JtheJazzMan]

Most people probably wont bother with a preamp on the FC, but I find a 10 mega ohm preamp adds some more bottom end and evens out the tone. I like it pizz or arco.

I love playing the acoustic in chamber settings, concert halls etc, because I can get away with using a bit of amplification. The acoustic tone of the bass gives the character, and the amp just reinforces the low end a bit.

But really loud gigs where you rock out? I find myself leaving the acoustic and taking the NS eub. Its plug and play, no matter how loud you need it. I did an outdoor concert last october I believe. The sound engineers plugged me into 2 walls of speakers, and I was loud and clear. It felt good.

 

[Les Fret]

Although I agree with Uncle Toad that a given pickup sounds different on each bass I also think that you can hear the basic sound character of each pickup on most basses that you put it.
When a pickup sounds nasal on one bass it probably will sound nasal on another bass also. Maybe less nasal than on the other bass but you will still hear it.

To get a good amplified arco tone is more difficult than to get a good amplified pizzicato tone I think. But some have proven it can be done.

 

[Uncletoad]

When a pickup sounds nasal on one bass it probably will sound nasal on another bass also. Maybe less nasal than on the other bass but you will still hear it.

Nasal is not a word ever used to describe my amplified tone...even arco using spirocores with a full circle.

Huge, warm, fat, these are the usual adjectives. If you like I'll post some sound clips to prove it.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I think maybe the listener has gotten lazy. I would suggest that it's the listener that has been beaten up by electric volume rather than the performer enhanced by it.

Excellent, IMO. (actually, I'd take the word maybe out of that sentence).

Our attempts to make this beautiful natural sound loud to compete with subwoofers and THX certified surround sound have diminished its richness.
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+1.

 

[Uncletoad]

Thinking about this thread promptedInvalid Link Removed fwiw.

 

[Wild Rice Chris]

I've soent serious time with a few pickups (BP-100, Bass Max, Golden Trinity w/Bass Max, Realist, and Full Circle), and for my playing, the Full Circle wins by a ridiculous margin. To be fair, every pickup was on a different bass, and most of the playing was without a preamp and through different amps. I've used the Full Circle through a handful of amps, with and without a preamp (Fishman Pro, fdeck HPF-pre, Parker Fly, ART TubeMP and TubeMP Studio, K&K Pure and Dual Channel Pro, BOSS pedal buffer), and have always been happy with the response on my current bass. I have no difficulty switching between pizz and arco, even response across the registers, it even faithfully amplifies my bass's weak spots (but then I can lessen them through EQ). I can't say that about the other pickups, but I have had situations where each sounded very good and can see how it may be the better choice for a different player.

I actually get better pizz to arco balance with the Full Circle than with a mic. I need to experiment with that some more on gigs.

I don't miss my Realist at all.

"THX. The audience is now deaf."

 

[MrSidecar]

Thinking about this thread promptedInvalid Link Removed fwiw.

+1000

I couldn't agree more, even though I'm slightly younger and more accustomed to electroacoustic pollution. I play an old bass, and these exact same thoughts have crossed my mind as well- what can amplification possibly AT ALL do good to a sound so great?

The only thing we're left with is the struggle to somehow diminish the degree in which the electrified sound sucks. All this just to keep up with rowdy, unruly audiences that can't STFU and equally tasteless bash-bang-monsterdrummers.

A very enjoyable read, uncle.

Best

Sidecar

 

[Marc Piane]

Eh. Pickups inherently suck. They are trying to approximate an acoustic instrument the has sound coming out of every orifice by strapping a little piece of metal to the bridge whether it be under the foot, in the adjuster wheel, or crammed in the wing. Yeah right. That'll work well.

Use whatever pickup sucks the least is my motto.

If these is a house sound system please try to have a mic somewhere in there. For me. Pretty please?

Phil hit the nail one head when he said this :

"The folly is as a professional musician I spend scads of money and time and energy converting that beautiful old instrument’s sound into electricity to keep up with the demands of the people coming to hear me perform. I reduce this glorious old box to 600 watts and a handful of small speakers so it’s loud as hell but sounds like ****. As I sit in the bar and warm up acoustically I inevitably get people coming up saying things like “my god that thing sounds beautiful”. After the show the comments are “you rock”."