myth-busting: Resonance is not synonymous with Vibration

[jamro217]

You are over generalizing all resonance as bad. A hofner or a starfire doesn't have a bunch of dead notes just because the bass is more resonant than a precision bass. Good night man.

Killed_by_Death stated numerous times he's NOT talking about acoustical instruments. Hollow and semi hollow bodies are considered acoustic in nature. Only solid bodies would be source material for this thread. Headless basses and the original Les Paul log (although not a bass) would qualify. Hope this helps.

 

[Kro]

I will say this though, from my understanding there is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to even acoustic instruments.

If a hollow body or semi hollow is actually louder than a similar solid body, I believe the energy it takes to create the additional volume needs to come from (or perhaps needs to be taken from) somewhere. It might not lead to a ton of dead spots necessarily depending on resonance, but I do believe it would come at the expense of sustain.

Now, mind you, I'm not saying additional sustain is necessarily desirable, but that's kind of how my mind connects the dots. Happy to be corrected on this front, as this is something I'm curious about.

 

[rzero]

After finding the "perfect" bass with tons of body vibration, these people then go out and buy a high-mass bridge for it.

 

[Iristone]

By "resonance", I think the OP means "resonant peaks". And you don't want that at a note frequency.

 

[Resonance129]

...

 

[Ric5]

Resonance is not synonymous with Vibration

without vibration there will be no resonance

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I read this a lot: "This (electric) instrument resonates well!"
If it does, it would be full of dead-spots!

I've said this so many times - you don't want resonance. It was what Les Paul was trying to avoid with The Log.

A lot of folks seem to think if they can feel a vibration that the instrument is resonating, but that's a false assumption.

There is almost always going to be some bit of a bass that is at any frequency, just not the peak of resonance which would be a dead spot. I'd rather have an electric bass that doesn't resonate or 'resonate' as I can reduce sustain but not easily increase it. I spend time trying to solve dead spots, not add them.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I think there are three ways your bass can affect string vibration: reflecting it back to the string

If you look at the modes of vibration of even a flat metal plate (a classic basic science education experiment on resonance and waves) they are complex. The chances of anything from the body vibrating in the string coherently with the existing vibration is pretty small and in reality anything reentering the string is at best going to be a mix and result in comb filtering. But you can show it's a small effect by calculating the sustain time of a string on a non-sustaining 'body' (e.g. Paul's rail guitar) and on a bass, calculate the power that must be absorbed by the body, then vibrating the body at the same frequency and power. The strings won't move much.

 

[KeithAlanK]

I am guilty of using the word resonant incorrectly, and will avoid it in the future.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I would think an instrument that resonates poorly would be one with dead spots.

No. See Les Paul's guitar made from a steel rail, or, indeed, The Log, which resonates much less than an acoustic guitar.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

So, what is the proper term for that quality?

'Bass with less sustain'

 

[blastoff]

there is an assumption, though, that pure string sustain with zero body/neck resonance/ interference is ideal. if that were true, go play a bass line on a full sized bozendorfer concert grand piano with the sustain pedal released. if that sounds good to you, more power to ya.
a Pbass sounds like a p bass because of the subtle ways sustain is diminished through body/neck resonance. that is timbre. an electric instrument is an acoustic instrument no matter how you slice it.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Exactly, & the stiffer the neck & body, the better the strings can vibrate, which is why necks with reinforcement (graphite/Ti) generally don't have dead-spots. (or at least less often than non-reinforced)

Sadly the Warmoth neck I have with steel reinforcement bars still has a dead spot. I am building an EUB with lots of carbon fibre in the neck. Fingers crossed...

 

[-Asdfgh-]

there is an assumption, though, that pure string sustain with zero body/neck resonance/ interference is ideal. if that were true, go play a bass line on a full sized bozendorfer concert grand piano with the sustain pedal released. if that sounds good to you, more power to ya.
a Pbass sounds like a p bass because of the subtle ways sustain is diminished through body/neck resonance. that is timbre. an electric instrument is an acoustic instrument no matter how you slice it.

A P-Bass uses a magnetic pickup, a Bosendorfer does not, so it's not a valid comparison. Try a P-Bass with a piezo.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I will say this though, from my understanding there is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to even acoustic instruments.

If a hollow body or semi hollow is actually louder than a similar solid body, I believe the energy it takes to create the additional volume needs to come from (or perhaps needs to be taken from) somewhere. It might not lead to a ton of dead spots necessarily depending on resonance, but I do believe it would come at the expense of sustain.

Now, mind you, I'm not saying additional sustain is necessarily desirable, but that's kind of how my mind connects the dots. Happy to be corrected on this front, as this is something I'm curious about.

Sometimes you can be lucky with the acoustic design (see drums with additional Helmholtz resonators or folded-horn bass cabs) or the transfer or energy from body to air. You don't tend to see acoustic guitars with Helmholtz resonators added, though, so you point probably largely stands.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

If you look at the modes of vibration of even a flat metal plate (a classic basic science education experiment on resonance and waves) they are complex. The chances of anything from the body vibrating in the string coherently with the existing vibration is pretty small and in reality anything reentering the string is at best going to be a mix and result in comb filtering. But you can show it's a small effect by calculating the sustain time of a string on a non-sustaining 'body' (e.g. Paul's rail guitar) and on a bass, calculate the power that must be absorbed by the body, then vibrating the body at the same frequency and power. The strings won't move much.

Put it this way, when this topic came up about 5 years ago I did the calculation, and the energy transfer to the body was equivalent to lightly tapping it.

 

[blastoff]

A P-Bass uses a magnetic pickup, a Bosendorfer does not, so it's not a valid comparison. Try a P-Bass with a piezo.

or, put a magnetic pickup on a grand piano. it will still sustain like crazy, and sound nothing like a P bass. i think the analogy is still valid

 

[-Asdfgh-]

or, put a magnetic pickup on a grand piano. it will still sustain like crazy, and sound nothing like a P bass. i think the analogy is still valid

Pianos are hammer-struck and use multiple strings per note with a very different level of tension for the strings, so still not a good analogy.

 

[HaphAsSard]

go play a bass line on a full sized bozendorfer concert grand piano with the sustain pedal released.

A P-Bass uses a magnetic pickup, a Bosendorfer does not, so it's not a valid comparison. Try a P-Bass with a piezo.

The sustain pedal of a piano removes the damping on all strings, not just those hit by the mallets as commanded by the key. If you play a sustained line in the bass register you'll get mud because of time-overlapping frequencies residing within the same critical band and inducing distortion at the inner ear level. For it to be an apples-to-apples comparison, you'd need to play the P bass in what banjoists call the Keith style, i.e. distributing the notes in the line among as many strings as possible and letting them ring freely (e.g. 6th fret of E string, 3rd of A string, open D, for a Bb-C-D scalar run); or using an appropriately set delay, reverb, sustainer or feedback pedal.

 

[Iristone]

a Pbass sounds like a p bass because of the subtle ways sustain is diminished through body/neck resonance. that is timbre. an electric instrument is an acoustic instrument no matter how you slice it.

It's my take as well. It modifies the sustain on different harmonics a bit, and character emerges from that.
But IMO both you and the OP are correct: the OP was talking about resonant peaks (a certain frequency/pitch where the body resonates and absorbs all the energy from the string), we are talking about body resonance (what the OP calls "vibration"). Peace and goodwill.