• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

NBA Free Agency

#42
dangnewt said:
I can't speak for the Lakers but "one popular superstar, draft poorly, dump contracts" was not what built the '07-08 Celtic team.

Four of the top 8 were (2 starters and 2 guys off the bench) were drafted by the Celtics.

Rondo - you are correct.

Paul Pierce, you may have heard of him, was drafted by the Celtics - he was one of the better 10th picks in NBA history.

Kendrick Perkins was a draft day trade by the Celtics - not too shabby for a 27th pick.

Tony Allen - better than the average 25th pick.

Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett were both acquired by trades which involved giving up a lot of drafted players and draft selections.
Click to expand...

You mad, homer? To get Allen they unloaded Jeff Green (picked 5th in the draft and would have gotten stupid rookie money), Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak's $25 million remaining contract.

To get Garnett they unloaded Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Sebastian Telfair, a draft pick and cash. That's a third of the maximum number of players they can have on the team for one guy. Telfair and Ratliff were acquired in a dump of Raef LaFrentz's ridiculous contract.

These two joined the one popular superstar, Paul Pierce. That's eight players for two (three if you'd like to include Glen Davis, which I'm sure you will). More than half their roster, all draft picks or guys with big contracts, unloaded for two players.

If Tony Allen was better than the average 25th overall pick, he'd see more minutes.

I don't see how you can include Perkins. Did the Celtics pick him? No? How good do you think Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Delonte West, and Gerald Green are? Do you think they're good players or poor players? Poor players = poor draft picks.

But yeah, the Lakers are more of a one popular superstar, dupe a bad team's fool of a GM into giving up their best player for the draft rights to said player's younger brother and Kwame Brown (and his expiring contract), and unload contracts (Vladimir Radmanovic at ~$30 million) kind of team.
 
#43
Beta said:
You mad, homer? To get Allen they unloaded Jeff Green (picked 5th in the draft and would have gotten stupid rookie money), Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak's $25 million remaining contract.

To get Garnett they unloaded Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Sebastian Telfair, a draft pick and cash. That's a third of the maximum number of players they can have on the team for one guy. Telfair and Ratliff were acquired in a dump of Raef LaFrentz's ridiculous contract.

These two joined the one popular superstar, Paul Pierce. That's eight players for two (three if you'd like to include Glen Davis, which I'm sure you will). More than half their roster, all draft picks or guys with big contracts, unloaded for two players.

If Tony Allen was better than the average 25th overall pick, he'd see more minutes.

I don't see how you can include Perkins. Did the Celtics pick him? No? How good do you think Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Delonte West, and Gerald Green are? Do you think they're good players or poor players? Poor players = poor draft picks.

But yeah, the Lakers are more of a one popular superstar, dupe a bad team's fool of a GM into giving up their best player for the draft rights to said player's younger brother and Kwame Brown (and his expiring contract), and unload contracts (Vladimir Radmanovic at ~$30 million) kind of team.
Click to expand...

I'm not mad over the Celtics losing to the Lakers this year. More a little sad.

I thought "Rondo was the only good pick on the roster" was a tad harsh and not fair to Ainge. And, yes, as a homer (how'd you know ;), couldn't let it stand unchallenged. I suggested an alternative reality. You disagree but you added some thoughts which is cool.

The Celtics got Perkins (a 27th pick) and Marcus Banks for that years 16th and 20th picks. I understand that you do not consider a draft day trade to be drafting a player. OK - we disagree, happens all the time. No blood, no foul.

There are a half-dozen guys worse than Allen that were drafted ahead of him and one guy better drafted after him. How many 25th picks and beyond are even on a roster getting 15-20 minutes a game for 6 years?

How do you think the Celtics got the players they traded for Garnett - Gomes was the 50th pick - he is the 10th highest scorer of his draft. Jefferson was the 15th pick - he is 6th in scoring and 3rd in rebounding. Delonte West was a 24th pick but is ranked 12th in minutes played from that draft and 13th in points. I guess I'm taking into account draft position more than you are when thinking about players. However, the Celtics woundn't get anything in return for trading them, if they didn't have some usefulness to their new team.

If you want to suggest that Danny duped some guys, I'd probably be on board. And I'll grant you that I don't totally get all the cap/contracts implications. But I have a sense of how many players actually have careers that were drafted mid to late round and the Celts have done fine in that respect under Ainge. All IMHO, etc.
 
#44
While the Celts certainly did it by trade more than draft, they traded some value to get Garnett. My issue is more the cap rules. If you lose a high value free agent you drafted, you can't go over the cap to sign a comparable value FA to replace him the only alternative is a sign and trade.

Right now the NBA has a players cap, where the players hold all the cards. And teams are actually punished for drafting well especially in the second round. If you get lucky and have a "find" in the second round, you aren't allowed to go over the cap to sign him.

The other issue is taxes, this is going to be more and more of a problem in the NBA. If your franchise is in a high tax state, it better be a good place for endorsements (LA, NYC) because if not (Toronto) your SOL. I'm not sure a franchise will be able to survive in CA. The new CBA should be interesting. A lot of commentators are betting on a walkout in 2012.

As far as trades that are suspicious, the only one that one suspicious was the Pal Gasol trade. Where the Lakers got Gasol, a second round pick in exchange for the rights to Mark Gasol, Kwamie Brown, Jarvis Crittendon, and the Lakers very poor first round picks in 008 and 10. I'm sure the fact that Jerry Wests son was the Memphis GM had nothing to do with the Lakers stealing Gasol.
 
#45
You could say the same for the Celtics. If Ainge and McHale weren't OG homies, does that trade go down? Yeah, Jefferson is valuable now. Not so much then. Gerald Green was out of the NBA last year, and had been with 4 different teams in 4 years. Telfair has been kind of a bust, no? Not that he was the Celtics' bad pick.

Anyway, is Chris Wallace West's son-in-law? Ironically, Wallace also drafted Paul Pierce when he was with the Celtics as GM.

And here's a list of notable guys drafted 25th or lower: Tony Parker, Kevin Martin, Carlos Boozer, Gerald Wallace, Kyle Korver, Jason Kapono, Anderson Varejao, Leandro Barbosa, Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, John Salmons, Matt Barnes, Josh Howard, Carlos Delfino, Steve Blake, Sasha Vujacic, Trevor Ariza, Chris Duhon, Manu Ginobili, Rashard Lewis, Stephen Jackson and Paul Millsap. You could also add Luke Walton and Eduardo Najera, but they're not so notable anymore, and maybe Beno Udrih, Jordan Farmar, Shannon Brown, and Roger Mason, Jr. So, yeah, that's 20+ guys picked 25th or lower who are normally getting significant minutes, many on teams that were in the playoffs.
 
#49
bassrique said:
Heat hype:

Click to expand...


The fans in Miami know who they will have to beat to win the title as they were shouting "BEAT LA! BEAT LA!". Unless they get the right group of players to join them, it's going to be a while before that happens, eventhough they are very close to having a video game team!

A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste! :cool:
 
#53
Beta said:
You could say the same for the Celtics. If Ainge and McHale weren't OG homies, does that trade go down? Yeah, Jefferson is valuable now. Not so much then. Gerald Green was out of the NBA last year, and had been with 4 different teams in 4 years. Telfair has been kind of a bust, no? Not that he was the Celtics' bad pick.

Anyway, is Chris Wallace West's son-in-law? Ironically, Wallace also drafted Paul Pierce when he was with the Celtics as GM.

And here's a list of notable guys drafted 25th or lower: Tony Parker, Kevin Martin, Carlos Boozer, Gerald Wallace, Kyle Korver, Jason Kapono, Anderson Varejao, Leandro Barbosa, Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, John Salmons, Matt Barnes, Josh Howard, Carlos Delfino, Steve Blake, Sasha Vujacic, Trevor Ariza, Chris Duhon, Manu Ginobili, Rashard Lewis, Stephen Jackson and Paul Millsap. You could also add Luke Walton and Eduardo Najera, but they're not so notable anymore, and maybe Beno Udrih, Jordan Farmar, Shannon Brown, and Roger Mason, Jr. So, yeah, that's 20+ guys picked 25th or lower who are normally getting significant minutes, many on teams that were in the playoffs.
Click to expand...

Now we are actually starting to agree!

Ainge-McHale was what I was alluding to in the "take advantage"

Jefferson is valuable now. Maybe McHale saw the potential - he was a 16 point 11 rebound guy in his last Boston season in what would have been his college junior season. There was at least a little bit of youth/potential for experience/known production in that trade.

I like your list, I agree that useful players and the occasional starter are there for the taking at 24 and beyond. The question is how many guys were drafted in the same ballpark as your list - so how often do you do as well as Tony Allen - half the time? less than half? How often do you do better than Allen - 10-20%?
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back