Need a little help with bass scales over chords

[Asher S]

Fair enough, but even if the OP didn't ask in so many words, I do think it's helpful to point out that functional harmony, by whatever name, is what's happening here, and that the whole thing can be understood in terms of movement within a single key. As far as patterns go, the major scale that embodies the key is also a pattern, every bit as much as a chord scale. I doubt whether, as a general rule, thinking in terms of four chord scales is necessarily easier, more direct, or more accurate than thinking in terms of movement within one key.

I certainly see what you've been saying, and I think we understand each other... Richard, all I know is that for 20+ years I knew all about key centers and didn't understand anything about modes. But when I finally "saw" the modal patterns, it was like a whole new dimension of music opened up to me.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Richard, all I know is that for 20+ years I knew all about key centers and didn't understand anything about modes. But when I finally "saw" the modal patterns, it was like a whole new dimension of music opened up to me.

I had a similar educational background. However, my own experience has been that modes opened up nothing except where modality was really involved, whether temporarily or throughout an entire piece. Where they add no new information, they can be a distraction more than anything else. For example, I feel they teach one nothing of value about, say, a V-I cadence in a Bach chorale. In that context, they give you little or nothing worth having that you didn't already have.

Apply them to modal jazz, however, or even to a lot of folk and pop music, and the situation changes. I've spent a lot of time doing all of those things, and understanding modality helped me a great deal there.

But I fear I digress, as the OP seems to have had his question answered well enough for now.... So enough of this from me. Hope you feel, as I do, that this has been a friendly back-and-forth, and not a battle.

 

[DumbChild]

Theoretically I can understand the modes and their uses. I actually study music at university believe it or not>.< I am just not the most advanced theory wise =P.

When it comes to playing in the studio, everyone seems to be really well off just improvising, yet, i would always use sheet music to learn a piece of music.

What i was trying to accomplish here was finding out of there is a basic guide line and pattern i could use to easily find the notes.. Otherwise i'd need to have time to think. Okay so we're playing D major in the key of G major, i know the notes of the chord and what's ideal to play.. but i wanted to be able to throw in a little more. I was always under the impression that the major scale patterns were played over their major chords.. it was only yesterday i realized " hang on a second, they all conflict with the key".
Do thats how i got onto thinking that modes would be the best scales to learn.
I feel i understand them enough, i just needed an idea of what patterns to learn so i can improvise with a little more ease..
Most of the time when i play bass it's just in rock music anyway... so using anymore then the pentatonic is rare, but i'd like to be able to know where my other notes are anyway.(without having to run a huge analysis in my head between chord changes)

Thanks for your input however.. i learned quite a lot reading over the posts anyway

 

[JTE]

After 30 years of playing and teaching I find little use for modes in playing chordal music. They add a level of information that's really already contained in the chord tones. G A B C D E F# G are the same notes no matter where you start them. If you see G C D and understand the relationship of those three chords to each other, then you know they're the I IV and V of the key of G. So, instead of thinking of three scales (G Ionian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian) and having to get your mind around switching scales with each chord change, think of it as the key of G and my target notes change with each chord change. But all the other notes are from the same pallet.

Now if the player is one who can seamlessly move from mode to mode without referencing back to the root of the mode (i.e. can start a D mixolydian on F# and still know it's mixolydian that might make modes useful for this kind of example. But why bother when the infromation is already there in the chord?

jte

 

[Asher S]

Hope you feel, as I do, that this has been a friendly back-and-forth, and not a battle.

Absolutely! I think you, JTE and I are... er, um, "mature"... this type of discussion is always educational and enlightening.

So, instead of thinking of three scales (G Ionian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian) and having to get your mind around switching scales with each chord change, think of it as the key of G and my target notes change with each chord change. But all the other notes are from the same pallet.

YES! That's exactly how I see it when I play through the modes! We are talking about the same thing, just different approaches. If this approach doesn't suit you, so be it, that's fine and dandy. My point has only been that for some people pattern recognition is easier.

Now if the player is one who can seamlessly move from mode to mode without referencing back to the root of the mode (i.e. can start a D mixolydian on F# and still know it's mixolydian that might make modes useful for this kind of example. But why bother when the infromation is already there in the chord?

When I practice arpeggios through all the modes, that's exactly what I see and hear. The modal patterns simply provide me with a framework that suits the way I think, learn, see and hear. It's not your cup of tea, and that's cool. Once again, we are talking about the same end result. If you see no point to my approach, that's cool, but I just can't let stand statements that this approach is "pointless", since it's made such a big difference in my knowledge, love of music, and playing (including at gigs...) these past few years.

Like Richard, I will also cease from extending this thread further since the OP has had his question answered.

Thanks JTE and Richard for an enjoyable discussion.

Asher

 

[DumbChild]

After 30 years of playing and teaching I find little use for modes in playing chordal music. They add a level of information that's really already contained in the chord tones. G A B C D E F# G are the same notes no matter where you start them. If you see G C D and understand the relationship of those three chords to each other, then you know they're the I IV and V of the key of G. So, instead of thinking of three scales (G Ionian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian) and having to get your mind around switching scales with each chord change, think of it as the key of G and my target notes change with each chord change. But all the other notes are from the same pallet.

Now if the player is one who can seamlessly move from mode to mode without referencing back to the root of the mode (i.e. can start a D mixolydian on F# and still know it's mixolydian that might make modes useful for this kind of example. But why bother when the infromation is already there in the chord?

jte

Thank you very much for your input.
I think i can understand what you're saying and i suppose i'd probably over complicate things for myself. I should just start from my basics and improve as i go expanding my knowledge as i learn rather then just trying to do it all.

 

[greenboy]

I didn't read the thread save for skimming a couple post very quickly. I do have a few comments though ; }

I pretty much work from chords as a player, but modes - which are just a fancy way of saying "scales that divide up an octave differently from each other" are useful melodic tools, and connecting between two lower chordal tones a different way can help one get outside of ruts of always doing things the same way - if the material is built around the modes you are using in the first place.

So actually modes might be thought of as a compositional tool first, thus the "modal music" that Richard refers to.

Sometimes at jams when we aren't playing from a song some of the other players are familiar with, I'll start playing before anyone but maybe the drums and lay down a line that draws heavily on "color tones" that say "this is not your major, minor or standard pentatonic thang", and a guitarist might then have a light bulb moment and go, "Oh, this is where Carlos Santana does that stuff Fank Zappa alluded to in that one song". Or it might hint of the Middle East.

It gets really lame really fast if some of the other players are used to connecting all the chord tones with the ones that are all to standard for them, and if they are choosing and constructing chords that don't fit that vibe. If I'm using a minor second up from the root as part of a line in the key of A or A minor but other players are using B ONLY instead of Bb in their riffs or melodies it kind of destroys the vibe.

So. It does help to know something about modes just to come up with more variety and flavor and diversity, even if nine out of ten of your songs are constucted in means that are more familiar to you.

 

[Johnny StingRay]

This mode stuff is all crazy stuff! I've played for over 30 years and have only used the major, minor, and minor blues scale.

Modes?? If you know the pattern for the major scale you automatically know all the modes. Hell, just start the scale on a different note in the key and play through it. How difficult is that? Need to memorize the names? WHY?????

I've played rock, country, jazz, blues, Christian and even a Bach piece now and then and never has any of the band leaders or directors said, "Hey let's play this in Phrygian mode." It was "This is a blues progresssion in Bb..........and one, and two, and three..........." "This is the Coltrane changes in G..................and one, and two, and three............" "This is Rhythm Changes in Eb.................and one, and two, and three................." All the musicians would have laughed the director out of the studio if they said..."Well, fellas, remember to play a Mixolydian mode over the G7 on the third beat in the sixteenth measure..." Friggin' hilarious!!!

I've played off tons of jazz standard charts and never once did I ever see written any mode I was supposed to play over any chord. Especially if there were chord changes every other beat, or even every beat! I didn't have time to think to myself..........."hmmmmm lets see I have to play a Am7b5 for two beats.........What friggin' mode do I play????? OHHH NOOO!!! WHAT DO I DO???" Crap, by the time I figured that out the group would have been eight bars in front of me!!!

Learn your CHORDAL scale pattens. Learn how to move around a key with the different arpeggios. Learn basic chord progressions. Learn how to use passing notes, lead in notes, octaves and fifths to move from one chord to the next. Learn a few basic chord substitutions.

Oh, I have a regular gig playing Christian and old school rock and roll from the fifties with an occasional jazz sit in gig. So I "ain't" no hack. Memorizing modes is a waste of time, because, (repeating myself), if you know the major scale pattern you already know all the modes and in every key.

MODES!!!!!!!!!!!! AARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!! "Much Ado About Nothing"!!! You all make something so simple, basic, and FUN into something so CRAZY!!!

Get out and play...........quit analyzing everything.

Thank you. I feel much better now.

 

[greenboy]

Hell, just start the scale on a different note in the key and play through it.

I always thought that the use of the C major scale and then starting on a different scale step of it to demonstrate the spacings in each mode easily sidetracked some people, and confusd the thought process of actually using them. "Oh, I'm actually playing in Eb but I'm going to be modal so I'll pretend that this relates to, uh, uh, uh..."

 

[Johnny StingRay]

After 30 years of playing and teaching I find little use for modes in playing chordal music. They add a level of information that's really already contained in the chord tones. G A B C D E F# G are the same notes no matter where you start them. If you see G C D and understand the relationship of those three chords to each other, then you know they're the I IV and V of the key of G. So, instead of thinking of three scales (G Ionian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian) and having to get your mind around switching scales with each chord change, think of it as the key of G and my target notes change with each chord change. But all the other notes are from the same pallet.

Now if the player is one who can seamlessly move from mode to mode without referencing back to the root of the mode (i.e. can start a D mixolydian on F# and still know it's mixolydian that might make modes useful for this kind of example. But why bother when the infromation is already there in the chord?

jte

You are exactly correct!!!!!

That's what I was trying to say in my other post......but not as efficiently stated as this quote.

 

[BillyRay]

DISCLAIMER: Jumbled mess ahead wich may or may not get me screamed at.

Believe it or not, modes have helped me memorize the fretboard years ago, so they have some use (except that I refer to them by their scale tones, not by their fancy-pants greek names). It just depends on what you want to accomplish when you are soloing.

I never think of modes when I'm writing a bassline for blues or country. For rock, it will work and I do use modes, especially during guitar solos where you can goof around the key. Since there isn't a main riff to give a clear perception of a tonal center, I'll very often sub scales and chords in specific places for some flavour (playing a minor scale over a major chord). I especially like the iii for this and I find it more usable than the major scale itself.

But I agree that if you trouble writing a bassline for a G/C/G/C chord change, modes should be the least of your worries.

 

[DrChris]

As a new bass player who is working though lots of different material (some of which heavily focuses on modes), I really appreciate this discussion and the different thoughts. Hearing both sides has helped me get my mind around where knowing the modes may be useful, but yet put it in perspective.

Thanks guys for the discussion!
Chris

 

[Asher S]

This mode stuff is all crazy stuff!
...
MODES!!!!!!!!!!!! AARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!! "Much Ado About Nothing"!!! You all make something so simple, basic, and FUN into something so CRAZY!!!

Get out and play...........quit analyzing everything.

Thank you. I feel much better now.

Ok, ok... settle down... Some tunes are modal (eg several tunes on Kind of Blue), some tunes aren't. There's no need to plant a flag in either the "modal camp" OR the "key center camp". These techniques are just that: tools, a painter's colors, a chef's ingredients for various recipes. Sometimes one approach "works", sometimes another approach works, sometimes neither or both work. It's never detrimental to learn a different perspective... on the contrary.

 

[chicagodoubler]

Wow are you guys still talking about modes over I-IV-V?




A couple "advanced" modal approaches... that mature improvisers use all the time:



Understanding the modes opens up a whole palate of improvisational gems. Running a sequencer or play along with the progression, if you blow IM7 IVM7 V7 you're already outlining the modes Ionian-Lydian-Mixolydian.

A favorite trick of the modern improviser is using Lydian over any and every M7 chord- evidenced by #4/11.

This opens up a whole new bag of tricks. The implicit reason for this is the conflict between melodic natural 4 and harmonic 3- an interval of a b9... not a very "major" sound. The use of the #4 in Lydian makes this interval a M9. Much, much hipper.


Also, blowing A Dorian over GM7 will hit the extensions effortlessly, making your thing sound far more awesome. Cannonball Adderly uses this approach on Kind of Blue, which is by definition, the essential album for modal improv.


Now, less talking for me personally, and more shedding!

 

[Dubista]

The blues scale has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times, where would you fit them in? over the minolr chords of II-III and VI?

 

[BillyRay]

The blues scale has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times, where would you fit them in? over the minolr chords of II-III and VI?

The Blues scale is 1,b3,4,b5,5,b7. Basically a minor pentatonic with a flatted 5. So it will work over minor chords, especially ones with a flatted 7.

Minor chords are not ii, iii and vi, these are the modes, modes that have a minor sound because the have the flatted third and a perfect fifth. This is why the vii mode is not minor, but diminished, since it has a flatted fith instead of a perfect fifth.

PS: There is also a major blues scale, wich is 1,2,b3,3,5,6. I also use the original blues scales over major/7 chords using the b3 has a mere passing tone to the perfect fifth. Since certain forms of blues can tolerate or even need a lot of chromatic movements, a "walking" feel is preferred. The blues scale can then be used in a lot of situation if you are careful about with notes fall on strong/weak beats.

 

[meta]

+1 agreed with the uselessness of modes... unless of course you have time to really go back to that new root within the scale, if you have time to do it right it can really work. just to explain precisely: modes are different starting points to a major scale, the notes are all the same. If you are just playing in the same scale but never define the modal root again, it is not "really" playing in the mode. And you should play the mode that is still the proper scale, not a g major mode over c major (although it can work, depends what you accent). for instance, you can play everything dorian, but stay in the proper major scales for the chord.

anyways, for G C D G..... I would play a G major scale pattern when the guitar is on G, C major when the guitar is on C, and D major when the guitar is on D, then back to G major... trying to make the transition as smooth or as sharp as required. I might play one of the modes, depends what root you want to use for each chord. The best bet, again if you have the time, is to fully voice the chords that are actually being played, and add 2nds, 6ths, etc that the guitar may not be playing. by going into a G major mode when the guitarist is playing C you are not fully supporting the sound of that C major chord. When the guitarist is playing C (which includes an F), it often sounds better if the bass player is also playing C and F instead of C and F# (by staying in G major) But it can sound cool, you just have to play with it and see, maybe not stay too long on the F# if the guitarist is on a C major chord, etc. maybe use it as a transition note. certainly you could just play the part of G major scale that fits with C (everything except the f#)

keep in mind, that a lot of songs don't have a key, or switch keys, and you have to make these sorts of full changes to play the proper chord a lot. like a song that goes Am, Dm, F, E. it is in C major except for the E.... so when the song goes to E you need to switch to play something in E major, or you are contracticting the harmonics of the song.

the easiest thing, if you are just starting out, is to play the scale that corresponds exactly to the guitar chord (if you have time). don't mean to sound like a broken record, and I'm not a professional musician, so if this doesn't seem proper to anyone let me know

 

[Johnny StingRay]

The Blues scale is 1,b3,4,b5,5,b7. Basically a minor pentatonic with a flatted 5. So it will work over minor chords, especially ones with a flatted 7.

Minor chords are not ii, iii and vi, these are the modes, modes that have a minor sound because the have the flatted third and a perfect fifth. This is why the vii mode is not minor, but diminished, since it has a flatted fith instead of a perfect fifth.

PS: There is also a major blues scale, wich is 1,2,b3,3,5,6. I also use the original blues scales over major/7 chords using the b3 has a mere passing tone to the perfect fifth. Since certain forms of blues can tolerate or even need a lot of chromatic movements, a "walking" feel is preferred. The blues scale can then be used in a lot of situation if you are careful about with notes fall on strong/weak beats.

"Minor chords are not ii, iii, and vi"?? What the heck are you talking about? In the chordal scale of G for example, the ii is Am, the iii is Bm, and the vi is Em.

If they aren't minor, then what are they?

Also, the vii is a minor with a b5, not a diminished arpeggio. In the key of G major, the vii is F#m7b5 which is made of the notes F#, A, C, E. If it was diminished it would be F#, A, C, Eb.

It's obvious there is some lousy "teaching" going on out there. That's OK, though. More gigs for me!!!

 

[greenboy]

I gotta say that any thread like this tends to pile up enough contradictory advice - some of which is plainly wrong - that a good teacher or theory book is a better way to study.

Way back when I found that Dr William Fowler's colums in downbeat magazine presented the material in an interesting, engaging fashion and provided plenty of examples, and I understand that his work has been published in a book.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Also, the vii is a minor with a b5, not a diminished arpeggio. In the key of G major, the vii is F#m7b5 which is made of the notes F#, A, C, E. If it was diminished it would be F#, A, C, Eb.

I think there may be a small misunderstanding here, perhaps stemming from whether one is thinking in terms of triads or 7th chords. Jazz people often tend to assume the latter, but not everyone is a jazz person or makes that same assumption.

F# A C is in fact a diminished triad. There's really no such thing as a minor triad with a b5; that's a diminished triad by definition.

Chords like F# A C Eb, though often referred to simply as diminished chords, are technically diminished 7th chords (as evidenced by the fact that they contain a 7th--Eb in this case). Chords like F# A C E, though usually referred to as m7b5, contain a diminished triad with a minor 7th. This is probably why they're also sometimes referred to as half-diminished (7th), as opposed to the diminished triad + diminished 7th of the "full" diminished (7th).

So if you're thinking in terms of triads on every scale degree, it's absolutely correct to say that the chord on the 7th degree is diminished. If you're thinking in terms of 7th chords, you'd be correct to say that it's a minor 7 flat 5 or half-diminished (7th).