Need Advice from Rick 4001 Owners

[GIBrat51]

I have a lefty 73 Rick 4001, and I'm in a bit of a quandary. The bass still has it's "Wavy" Grover tuners, and I'm wondering if they aren't the problem - or if it's the strings...
The tuners seem to be in excellent shape, and have always worked very well with whatever strings I've put on the bass. However...
Since I installed a set Of Dogal JC106A "Jaco Flats" on the bass? I'm having to re-tune it, every time I pick it up. Not just tweek a couple of strings; actually re-tune it. Which Isn't something I ever have to do with my 27 other basses - even after a couple of months. So...
Do you think it's the tuners? There doesn't seem to be much... well, "tension", for want of a better word - against them, when I re-tune the strings. I can't seem to find any tension adjustment on the Grovers - no friction washers or adjustment screws. Is it inside the tuner - and am I going to have to (shudder) take the back off of them? Gawd, I hope not... Or, are they... just what they are?
OTOH; could it be the fact that the Dogal "Jaco Flats" just don't have much in the way of tension, and aren't giving the tuner gears anything to fight against? According to Dogal, the "Jaco Flats" only take 5kg. of tension, to pull them to pitch. Which, compared to other bass strings - especially other flats - is pretty much no tension at all.
So... are my tuners just finally pooping out - or is it that the super-low tension strings are just not giving the tuner gears anything to fight against? I really don't want to take these flats off. Aside from feeling - and sounding - great, my 4001 has neck problems that really need as little tension as I can get. But, I'm willing (reluctantly) to replace the tuners - if I absolutely have to...

 

[Dabndug]

I have the wavy Grover tuners on my heavily restored '72/3 4001 and they hold tune fine with TI flats (and have for a decade or so). They are, however, somewhat "looser" tuners than the reverse Klusons also used by Rickenbacker in the '60s and '70s.

I note that the break angle at the headstock on '70s 4001s is pretty shallow. Coupled with super low tension strings, this could be the explanation for the lack of stability you are experiencing. Are the strings set up for maximum break angle? On mine the break angle is pretty shallow even with the strings wound down to the base of the tuners.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

That's a decent guess, headstock angle on Rics varied from around 5-8 degrees, depending on era. That one in the photo looks even shallower, or maybe it's gradually bent upwards over it's lifetime. They relied on the tall nut to get enough break angle, but if that was the primary problem, the strings would be popping out of the nut slots. Do you wind your strings "down" so they end up tight to the ferrule at the headstock, like the photo above? A lot of people replaced the wavy grovers over the years, always a little "iffy", and they tended to get sloppy. I think that's why Ric eventually opted for the Schallers. My 78' 4001 had the Schallers, as do two of of my three clone builds and they are superb. Did you press-in some good witness points at the bridge saddles?

 

[blr2]

What do you mean by "retune"? How much is the bass off pitch, a semitone, a tone? Is it up or down? Do you have to retune all strings by about the same amount? How is the setup? Did you adjust the truss rods for the lower tension of these strings? Is the instrument subject to temperature and/or humidity changes? Many questions, but my gut feeling is that it has got something to do with the strings.

 

[Gizmot]

I gave a '79 4001 that was bought new (yeah - I've been playing it for 46 years). The stock tuners work okay but they don't inspire much confidence when I turn them. The bass generally stays in tune reasonably well - more than enough to get through a gig. I put a Hipshot bridge on the bass a few years ago and have been blown away by how much of an improvement that made and I may replace the tuners too. If there is a question, I'd recommend replacing the stock machines.

 

[JeffCullen]

I'm always nervous when changing the type and gauge of strings on a 4001 with those old-style truss rods. Does your action seem to be getting higher?

 

[Engle]

I think it's more likely that the strings are taking a long time to settle.
You could swap back to your old strings to verify.

 

[Jeff Scott]

As asked above, are you having to tune up, down, whatever?

I have no experience with the Dogals, so I wonder if they are like TI Acousticores which took a while for them to become stable and hold their tuning once they have been stretched enough.

 

[sunbeast]

Those tuners were pretty awful (though Rick purists love to celebrate them for some reason)- still I doubt the tuners themselves are slipping under low tension (or if they did they'd eventually settle into some stasis unless the gears are completely worn). I suspect a combination of low tension, string design, and the need to leave a ton of excess string on the tuner to compensate for the lack of headstock break-angle (or lack of break-angle if you haven't left adequate string to wind down on the tuning posts). If the strings really have that low of tension (which seems unbelievable given the tension measurements available for other strings) then it seems like they'd be prone to prolonged tuning instability to me when fresh

 

[FunkHead]

Just a thought, Maybe they are binding in the nut? Or, slipping on the Machine head Post, Or just stretching...

It's doubtful that the the Machine heads themselves are slipping.

If they are different tension than what they replaced then the Truss Rods could be settling in.

FWIW, I only like to change one string at a time on a 4001 Vs. removing all 4 strings.

 

[GIBrat51]

Thanks for all the replies so far. To answer some of your questions/concerns;
- The strings always go down at least a semitone; usually more.
- Setup? The neck is almost dead straight. I did have to re-set the hairpin truss rods a little, since the tension of the Dogal "Jaco's" is roughly 1/4 of the old Rick Light Nickel Rounds they replaced; and roughly 1/3 the tension of the TI Jazz Flats I have on my Alembic...
- Temperature/humidity changes? In northern Indiana? Yes; but the house is air conditioned - and de-humidified - so it's a reasonably stable climate in here. It never did this with the old Rick strings; just the usual minor tweek on a couple of strings that all the other 27 basses need after a week or so.
- Yes, the action was getting higher - before I put the Dogals on it. My 4001 is showing the signs of "negative neck angle" - where the little piece of wood that was left when they routed a huge hole for the pickup, right where the neck transitioned into the body, starts to act like a hinge under string tension. So, the neck pulls up - not bend; it rises up - like a drawbridge opening. The bridge is all the way down, and the string height - while higher than I would like, below the 12th fret - is still pretty playable. Just not as low an action as I prefer on a Rick. But, since I put these flats on it? The lifting seem to have stopped, and the string height is... stable, at least.
- Break angle? It's... decent. Pretty much the same as the 4001 in the picture. Yes, the strings are wrapped down around the tuner posts, about as far as they'll go. And, yes; the witness points are set - at both ends.
- No, the strings are not binding in the brass nut I replaced the original one with - about 14 years ago. I always check for that whenever I make a change in the type/gauge of strings...
- The strings have been on the bass for... almost 2 years, now. The 4001 is my "go to " bass; as such, it sits next to the amp in my living room - and gets played a lot. They should be well broken in, but... I suppose it's possible they are like those TI Acousticores...
So... I guess the problem is a combination of loose, old tuners - and "almost no tension" strings. I really hate to change the Grovers out, but... I will, if I have to. Any other strings on the poor old thing, would be the death of it pretty quick...

 

[GIBrat51]

Those tuners were pretty awful (though Rick purists love to celebrate them for some reason)- still I doubt the tuners themselves are slipping under low tension (or if they did they'd eventually settle into some stasis unless the gears are completely worn). I suspect a combination of low tension, string design, and the need to leave a ton of excess string on the tuner to compensate for the lack of headstock break-angle (or lack of break-angle if you haven't left adequate string to wind down on the tuning posts). If the strings really have that low of tension (which seems unbelievable given the tension measurements available for other strings) then it seems like they'd be prone to prolonged tuning instability to me when fresh

Well, I wouldn't say "celebrate", exactly, but... yeah, it's a "purist" thing, for sure. And, I guess I'm one, too... That, or it's just a perverse kind of curiosity; "How long before they just blow the backs off - like everybody else's?" But, they do look more proportionally correct than the big Schallers, IMO.
As for the stupid low tension numbers? I was more than a little skeptical, too. But, I also use Dogal's R44 Traditional Flats (and like those a lot) - and they are not very high tension flats, either. But, when I installed the Jacos? Unlike other strings, where, when the strings just start to tighten up - and it takes maybe 6 or 7 more turns of the tuner key to get them to pitch? These things took just about 2 and a half. They came up to pitch, like, right now. So, maybe the numbers are correct. In any case, they are very, very, low tension strings.... I've heard - and read - that Dogal's Jonas Hellborg Flats - and the Hellborg Rounds, too - are also very low tension, and are, indeed, pretty unstable for quite a while, before they settle in. But, as I said; my Jaco's are almost 2 years old - and well played. That's a very long time to settle in. The R44's didn't take long at all...

 

[Fender_Bender]

Aren’t those the strings with a nylon braided core or something like that that never settles down ?.

 

[RandomKaren]

Aren’t those the strings with a nylon braided core or something like that that never settles down ?.

I have a set of Thomastik Acousticores on one bass, they have nylon cores but even so settle down in a week or two.

 

[newwavefrank]

I've heard - and read - that Dogal's Jonas Hellborg Flats - and the Hellborg Rounds, too - are also very low tension, and are, indeed, pretty unstable for quite a while, before they settle in. But, as I said; my Jaco's are almost 2 years old - and well played. That's a very long time to settle in. The R44's didn't take long at all...

I don't remember all the reasons, but I try new strings fairly often, even though I have my favorites (La Bella Super Steps, TI Jazz Rounds..). Normally When I get a different kind I will at least play them a few gigs before changing them, even if I don't love them. All I remember about the Jonas Hellborg rounds is that I took them off within half hour of putting them on. I couldn't stand them for some reason(s). Anyway that has nothing to do with your post. If the problem started with the new strings, it would seem that changing the strings to something else would be the obvious answer before accusing the tuners. Having siad that, that neck issue sounds serious, so I see why you really really want the low tension to work

 

[Wasnex]

I have Ric 4001 that also needs frequent tuning. It was my first bass, and I thought it was normal to tune every other song.

The neck seems stable (as in it doesn't need to be adjusted), but it's sort of a wet noodle. My impression is the neck moving around is the source of the tuning problem.

Not sure it's actually the neck. I remember reading something along these lines: Too much wood may have been taken out from under the neck pickup. This causes the neck to pivot at this point, and which can result in a catastrophic failure of the wood .

 

[Pimpernel Smith]

According to Dogal, the "Jaco Flats" only take 5kg. of tension, to pull them to pitch. Which, compared to other bass strings - especially other flats - is pretty much no tension at all.

Well, you're an experienced player both with longevity and the range of instruments you have. So, I'll give you my unscientific guess: It's the soft, low tension strings.

 

[Five or Six]

, I only like to change one string at a time on a 4001 Vs. removing all 4 strings.

I've done this for year's. Some people claim it doesn't really matter. One at a time or all at once. When I was on the road the guitar tech always changed my strings one at a time. I played 4 nights a week , sometimes more. His claim was to not "shock" the neck by all at once. OK, I never had an ill playing bass or a bad neck. If it was good enough for him it's good enough for me today. The guy was a pro! The way I see it, do what you do!

 

[J Wilson]

IF you're satisfied they are strung correctly on the posts, seated properly in the bridge, and you only tune UP and this slippage keeps happening . . .

Before I did anything, I'd install a different set of strings to flush out it's the Dogals or the tuning keys.

Dogals advertised that these Jaco Flats are exceptionally super smooth in their exterior finish and low tension. These two features seem to be at work here.

Regardless, you NEVER want to do major surgery to a bass that's been reliable but suddenly acts up with one set of strings without trying different strings to possibly eliminate that problem, unless there's an obvious mechanical failure.

 

[micguy]

I have a lefty 73 Rick 4001, and I'm in a bit of a quandary. The bass still has it's "Wavy" Grover tuners, and I'm wondering if they aren't the problem - or if it's the strings...
The tuners seem to be in excellent shape, and have always worked very well with whatever strings I've put on the bass. However...
Since I installed a set Of Dogal JC106A "Jaco Flats" on the bass? I'm having to re-tune it, every time I pick it up.

OK, let's review. You have a bass that hasn't shown this issue for 51 years, then you change strings, and on every string you have tuning stability issues. If the tuners did go bad, do you think all 4 would do that at precisely the same time?

It's the strings, or something in the way they set up on the bass - look at that, not the tuners.