Double Bass Need help concerning a latin tune, I hope this is in the right section!

[jfh2424]

Hello.

I play in a big band. I have minimal experience in playing Latin music. Whenever I have played it, I've enjoyed it!

My band is currently learning « As », by Stevie Wonder, arranged by Drew Zaremba. Here is a link to the audio.

I have the sheet music. He notates the first few bars on bass, which I play exactly. However, he doesn't notate the actual bass notes on a lot of the rest of the groove. It's chord changes only, except when there is specific punches.

When listening, I notice that on the overall groove, the bassist often plays the root of the next measure on the 4 of the previous mesure. I understand this to be a part of the Mambo style. That's cool.

However, he doesn't do that all the time. Sometimes, he just plays the chord change on the 1 of the measure, at least this is what I am hearing. The pianist also seems to be doing this. Sometimes he changes on the 4 of the previous measure, sometimes he changes on the 1 of the measure.

So, it all sounds really cool on the audio. But when I try to play this with the audio, sometimes it sounds off because I'm not changing at the same time as the bassist on the audio. That's not fun, but it's not catastrophic.

What is really difficult is that when I play it in rehearsal, the pianist is not necessarily changing at the same time as me either. That sounds off. It doesn't sound good, at least to me.

So, what am I missing here? Is there some kind of formula here that I am not getting? How do the pianist and I get on the same page concerning the changing of the chords? I guess we could actually map out every chord change and decided when we are both changing at the same time. However, something tells me that this is not the answer. I think that there must be some kind of pattern that I am not understanding. Or am I perceiving it wrong, maybe the pianist and bassist don't change at the same time and what I perceive to be chaos is actually the way it is supposed to be to sound?

I'm not able to post the sheet music here, but I can send it by email to you if you feel it will help to get some answers.

Thanks so much, I don't think I will be able to figure this out by myself

 

[PapaBearBass]

I'm not an expert in Latin bass but what little I've learned is one place to start is starting the count on the "and of 4" instead of the one. And then add in the "and 3 and" so it's kind of like "and 1, and 3 and, and 1 and 3 and"

Of course the variations are infinite… Latin bass is an amazingly complex and beautiful universe all unto itself. But I think the first step is to internalize the anticipation in the bass against the clave in the rhythm section.

What helps is listening to the piano part - the montuno will often compliment the baseline.

For some good mambo background research check out Perez Prado. He was down in Havana in the 50's and then moved to Mexico.

 

[SteveCS]

It might be worth taking some time to work through The Latin Bass Book by Chuck Sher and Oscar Stagnaro. You won't find that tune in it but it will cover all of the essentials of Latin bass and how it functions with the foundations of the clave. This feels like a teach a man to fish moment. YMMV

 

[PapaBearBass]

Beautiful arrangement by the way

 

[ejnachtrab]

It might be worth taking some time to work through The Latin Bass Book by Chuck Sher and Oscar Stagnaro. You won't find that tune in it but it will cover all of the essentials of Latin bass and how it functions with the foundations of the clave. This feels like a teach a man to fish moment. YMMV

+1 This is I good book and it'd be worth your time.

 

[Steve Freides]

@jfh2424, why not slow down the playback, turn up the bass and down the treble, and try to write down what you hear? That or ask to see if you can buy the chart.

-S-

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Hello.

I play in a big band. I have minimal experience in playing Latin music. Whenever I have played it, I've enjoyed it!

My band is currently learning « As », by Stevie Wonder, arranged by Drew Zaremba. Here is a link to the audio.

I have the sheet music. He notates the first few bars on bass, which I play exactly. However, he doesn't notate the actual bass notes on a lot of the rest of the groove. It's chord changes only, except when there is specific punches.

When listening, I notice that on the overall groove, the bassist often plays the root of the next measure on the 4 of the previous mesure. I understand this to be a part of the Mambo style. That's cool.

However, he doesn't do that all the time. Sometimes, he just plays the chord change on the 1 of the measure, at least this is what I am hearing. The pianist also seems to be doing this. Sometimes he changes on the 4 of the previous measure, sometimes he changes on the 1 of the measure.

So, it all sounds really cool on the audio. But when I try to play this with the audio, sometimes it sounds off because I'm not changing at the same time as the bassist on the audio. That's not fun, but it's not catastrophic.

What is really difficult is that when I play it in rehearsal, the pianist is not necessarily changing at the same time as me either. That sounds off. It doesn't sound good, at least to me.

So, what am I missing here? Is there some kind of formula here that I am not getting? How do the pianist and I get on the same page concerning the changing of the chords? I guess we could actually map out every chord change and decided when we are both changing at the same time. However, something tells me that this is not the answer. I think that there must be some kind of pattern that I am not understanding. Or am I perceiving it wrong, maybe the pianist and bassist don't change at the same time and what I perceive to be chaos is actually the way it is supposed to be to sound?

I'm not able to post the sheet music here, but I can send it by email to you if you feel it will help to get some answers.

Thanks so much, I don't think I will be able to figure this out by myself

From my experience listening to Latin music (a lot) and playing in an Afro-Cuban orchestra (a few months) I would say it's likely that playing the chord change on the 1 of the measure and not the 4 or upbeats of 4 from previous measure would happen in a bridge or part that is written and not a solo section. The montuno section is usually where the soloists open up and you play a tumbao pattern that anticipates the chord of the next measure on the last beat of the current measure. Also, definitely check out the Latin bass book for getting the feel right. But if you still feel like there's a mismatch between you and the pianist, you could agree on which sections to change on 1 and which sections to anticipate. My gut would be play head landing on 1 and open up into tumbao on during the solos.

 

[Wasnex]

However, he doesn't notate the actual bass notes on a lot of the rest of the groove. It's chord changes only, except when there is specific punches.

IMHO, this is the norm at collegiate or pro level. When the entire bass part is written out, it's most likely intended for high-school level or amateurs.

You are free to improvise the bass lines within the constraints of the style and harmony...suitable chord subs may apply. To learn the style, listen to and play various songs in the style. Over time you learn to make them your own.

Of course this advice is couched in you having a grasp of theory. Meaning when you see chord symbols, you know the chord tones. Root and 5th are very common in the style, but sometimes you may throw in other chord tones, or even non-chord tones.

If you are playing the same arrangement as the recording, copy/transcribe the bass part note for note. That does not necessarily mean you have to play the exact bass part in rehearsal or performance. The point is to learn and internalize the style.

I have the sheet music. He notates the first few bars on bass, which I play exactly. However, he doesn't notate the actual bass notes on a lot of the rest of the groove. It's chord changes only, except when there is specific punches.

The first few bars are most likely just an example. Unless the notes are interlinked with other parts, you are free to improvise here as well. The written out lines later in the part should be played note for note, unless they are cues. It's common to play certain punches or soli lines with others. Punches don't always indicate which notes to play; sometimes they only show the timing and rhythm and it's on you to choose a suitable note...often the root.

 

[salmon256]

I would look at the The Latin Bass Book by Chuck Sher and Oscar Stagnaro as others have said it is great. For this, this is a style after Salsa as in its title. I just wanted to post to help your post get bumped but also have a convo.

I'm gonna get flack for this,
As a giant fan of Salsa, Mambo, mostly Cumbia especially from Colombia but Ranchera Cumbia - but I love modern El Ranchera.
This is my own little rant but I dislike the generalizing term of Latin Bass since the genres in Latin America are super super complex and diverse. Mexican El Ranchera is years different from Salsa, and Cumbia while inspire by Salsa has a very specific bassline and beat that so different from Salsa IMO. I play some Cumbia - mostly Mexican infused and that Cumbia is so different, if I play a Cumbia line in this arrangement the song would sound totally different. - sorry young man yelling at the clouds. OP nothing at all about your post but want to use this chance to discuss amazing Latin music if anyone is down, just reminded me of it.

Just wanna bump your post and shoutout that book, it is great! Afterwards dive into Latin music, it is some of the most fun bass work you can imagine, complex give the classic Salsa guys like Willie Colon a listen some amazing bass work and then jump into basic modern El Ranchera - mostly for me easy roots and fifths but some extremely fun groovy music. Salsa made me want to play bass even more, some amazing music.

 

[Don Kasper]

Here is another fine printed resource for learning "Afro-Cuban" (not "Latin".....) music.
IMFO, of course.

 

[Don Kasper]

I'm gonna get flack for this,

Not from me...
Thx.

 

[2cooltoolz]

@jfh2424, why not slow down the playback, turn up the bass and down the treble, and try to write down what you hear? That or ask to see if you can buy the chart.

-S-

Or this.
Moises App: The Musician's App | Vocal Remover & much more

(It'll change you life. )



f

From there you can download it (or any part of it) and load it in Audacity to really hear it your way!

 

[coyote1]

About playing the next root on the 4 of the current measure: in this arrangement, I'm getting that the pianist is not hitting every 4. He seems to be alternating measures. So in measure one he'll play chords on counts 1 3, in measure two 1 3 4, etc. Your opportunity to hit the next root on count 4 is when he's not playing the chord on that count!

Try it and see if it works.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

Sometimes players will square things up live and deviate from the source material.

Sometimes tunes with flexible arrangements require a conversation before rehearsal or gigs.

I would follow and listen to the musical consensus in the moment. That is unless the choices being made are dogpile.

 

[dk_bass]

+1 for Moises to transcribe and get the feel of the original recording/style. I love this style of music and have done the same to learn to feel it better.

Now, my apology for hijacking the thread, but I can't seem to DM @salmon256. And I was unable to find an answer last time I searched. I've had a super specific question about mariachi music (since you specifically referenced another Mexican sub-genre).

Any idea why in songs like El Rey by Vicente Fernández the bass pattern is "switched"? 5-R instead of R-5

Super intriguing to me, especially with a country background where I spend all show going R-5

 

[salmon256]

Now, my apology for hijacking the thread, but I can't seem to DM @salmon256. And I was unable to find an answer last time I searched. I've had a super specific question about mariachi music (since you specifically referenced another Mexican sub-genre).

Hey DK, lemme check my settings I may have DMs off, start of my Talkbass career I love starting some spicy debates so I didn't want to be flooded with DMs JK! I just want to say I'm not Mexican or Latino so I do not want to be a spokesperson for something I'm not involved in. I am lucky though to have friends who welcome me to play, but it was super gargeband-ish but still I learnt from mostly youtubers the basics and Cumbia/Ranchera Cumbia is mostly roots and fifths with an added third in a certain Cumbia pattern. A goal of my is to get involved with Latin music mostly of course Ranchera, I plan to move to Texas so I'm sure there will be opportunity for that! I play Ranchera cumbia which I would not say is Mariachi, traditional Ranchera from my knowledge does use instruments from Mariachi but is more folk-focus and about the ranching culture in Mexico, I believe in the grand scheme it is "new" to Mexico's music. Mexico has some insane musical diversity, brass bands, rock etc you name it. Each region pretty much has their own genre depending on which immigrant group moved there or whatever the history of that town was.

For the El Rey song by Vicente Fernández I am unsure, I am going to say maybe it is basing off a style of a guitarron? It may just be an artist choice or musical choice. Listening to it now, could it be the guitarron is just playing octaves?

 

[Wasnex]

I'm gonna get flack for this

Yes you are .

You wrote:

This is my own little rant but I dislike the generalizing term of Latin Bass since the genres in Latin America are super super complex and diverse.

Then in the same post, you wrote:

Afterwards dive into Latin music, it is some of the most fun bass work you can imagine,

Shame on you .

Just an observation. The music we are talking about is not authentic Latin music in the first place. It was not composed or arranged by Latin people, and most of the performers in the video are not Latin. Perhaps we could call it a salsa- and mambo-inspired jazz arrangement of a Motown song. As such, I don't expect the bass line to comply strictly with the tenants of any specific traditional Latin style.

IME these types of compositions/arrangements are fairly common in the big band world.

 

[salmon256]

Shame on you .

LMAO! I for real notice that, I didn't mean it like that lol. I somewhat accepted though that is how we define it. I mean don't get me wrong using it as a way to describe music from the Latin world but I just dislike when someone is like "Play this Latin Style." I meant more like it makes sense to say something is Latin in the sense that it is Latino/from Central/South America Spanish speaking countries, music from Spain can be consider Latin, and many big hits in Spain are huge in Central and South America. So yeah I think I mean more like I hate how people will say that this is "Latin" or play this "Latin" give me a Latin beat, like what? If I saw on a chart to play Latin style on a Cumbia song, Ranchera or Tango I'm gonna be confused because all those genres have their own styles of beats. I guess in my view I feel like classical or big band composers can be a bit pretentious when it comes to Salsa and Mambo, it is so complex especially folk genres that combined elements of modern music or brass instruments, just like blues those genres are strongly oral traditional or have their sheet music.

Yes I agree, this is just turning a song into a Latin Vibe or Mambo vibe. It would argue it can be authentic in a way, it is just giving it a style but it is giving it the most basic style of the Mambo salsa style mostly based off the early era of Mambo like during the 50s/60s/70s which we saw a lot of this big band Cuban bands and Puerto Rican groups. Mostly the 50s for those Caribbean bands. Though there is some famous Cuban singers who are big band style and this type of playing and feel you would hear in their bands, but they are of course all about the singer band is just an after thought.

Sorry OP just hijacked this thread haha.

Anyway I end with this... I don't care what anyone says this is SALSA!

 

[dk_bass]

@salmon256 Feel free to message me (please do).
Thanks! I could probably name a few Selena tunes that do the same. I wonder if it's an instance of the instrument (guitarrón) shaping the playing, or vice versa.
In this case, I am Mexican! And let me know whenever you're in Texas, would love to show you around.

I've been thinking about reaching out to some schools here. I'd be surprised if the state uni here didn't have a top 10 mariachi program.

As far as new stuff… I love Grupo los De La O and the other corrido-adjacent stuff. Especially when the songs have both upright and electric . (Another interesting discussion to be had there)

 

[Wasnex]

Anyway I end with this... I don't care what anyone says this is SALSA!

I agree that notating a song as "Latin" is insufficient, regardless of how common it is. The following is Latin, but specifically Banda


Neither Latin nor Banda tell you anything about the beat/feel. But Salsa, Mambo, Bossa, Cumbia, Samba, etc, do. Course I believe there are regional variations in what one might play.