Need Help Understanding LH Positions

[RemoteOutpost]

I was assigned a Bach piece to play and was told that certain sections should be in open, 5th or 7th position. I am only a few lessons into my training and I don't really understand yet what these mean and most of my fretboard understanding is in the open position. How should I approach this? My next lesson isn't until Tuesday and I'd really like to make some headway on this thing. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Mushroo]

Which Bach composition? I'm a big fan!

Are you a bass guitarist or a double bassist?

On bass guitar, "position" refers to the fret number. So "5th position" on a bass guitar means your 1st finger (index) is on the 5th fret. And "7th position" means your 1st finger is on the 7th fret.

The reason why your teacher is specifying the position, is because sometimes the same note can be played in different places on the fretboard. For example if you wanted to play the low A note, you could either play the open A string, or you could play at the 5th fret of the E string. If your teacher says "play the A in 5th position" then they are instructing you to play the A that is on the 5th fret of the E string, as opposed to the open A string.

"Position" refers to something different on double bass (aka acoustic upright bass). The double bass technique sub-forum is here, if you want to learn more about the classical side of things: Orchestral Technique [DB]

 

[RemoteOutpost]

Which Bach composition? I'm a big fan!

Are you a bass guitarist or a double bassist?

On bass guitar, "position" refers to the fret number. So "5th position" on a bass guitar means your 1st finger (index) is on the 5th fret. And "7th position" means your 1st finger is on the 7th fret.

The reason why your teacher is specifying the position, is because sometimes the same note can be played in different places on the fretboard. For example if you wanted to play the low A note, you could either play the open A string, or you could play at the 5th fret of the E string. If your teacher says "play the A in 5th position" then they are instructing you to play the A that is on the 5th fret of the E string, as opposed to the open A string.

"Position" refers to something different on double bass (aka acoustic upright bass). The double bass technique sub-forum is here, if you want to learn more about the classical side of things: Orchestral Technique [DB]

I am learning the Bach Invention #4. It doesn't look that hard on paper but since most of the notes I can read are in open position, I'm having trouble playing the 5th and 7th position sections. I'm sure he will explain more at our lesson, it's just very slow-going right now.

 

[Mushroo]

Okay, so for example in measure 36, the bass plays the notes D-E-F. One possible fingering for this (the fingering that your teacher wants you to practice right now) is to play the D at the 7th fret with your 1st finger, the E at the 9th fret with your 3rd finger, and the F at the 10th fret with your 4th finger. This is called "7th position" because your 1st finger is at the 7th fret.

Personally I would already have shifted my hand way back in measure 28. That measure has both an A and a D, either of which you could play as an open string, and use that opportunity to reposition your hand.

My best advice for accurate shifting is, I try to keep my entire hand and arm relaxed, my fingers close together, and my thumb just gently grazing the back of the neck (no death grip).

 

[RemoteOutpost]

Okay, so for example in measure 36, the bass plays the notes D-E-F. One possible fingering for this (the fingering that your teacher wants you to practice right now) is to play the D at the 7th fret with your 1st finger, the E at the 9th fret with your 3rd finger, and the F at the 10th fret with your 4th finger. This is called "7th position" because your 1st finger is at the 7th fret.

Personally I would already have shifted my hand way back in measure 28. That measure has both an A and a D, either of which you could play as an open string, and use that opportunity to reposition your hand.

My best advice for accurate shifting is, I try to keep my entire hand and arm relaxed, my fingers close together, and my thumb just gently grazing the back of the neck (no death grip).

OK cool I'll try this out in the morning when my wife isn't asleep lol. Thanks for the help!

 

[Malcolm35]

I was assigned a Bach piece to play and was told that certain sections should be in open, 5th or 7th position. I am only a few lessons into my training and I don't really understand yet what these mean and most of my fretboard understanding is in the open position. How should I approach this?

This may help. It is a cut and paste from a post on the getting started string. Look at how the notes fall in open 5 and 7 position.

For this paper we will be referring to notes as A, B, C & 1, 2, 3. For example:

C Major Scale…….....…C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C (octave)
Scale degree number. 1. 2, 3,.4,.5, 6, 7, 8 (octave)

The Major Scale Box Pattern will also be used in our examples.
The Major Scale Box
G|~~|---A----|-------|---B---|---C---|1st string
D|~~|---E----|---F---|--------|--G----|
A|~~|---B----|---C---|-------|---D----|
E|~~|---------|---G---|-------|---A----| 4th string

C and D played on the A string.
E, F and G played on the D string.
A, B and C played on the G string.

Why did I place the C root note on the A string? If we place the tonic root note of the scale or chord progression on the A string the 4th and 5th scale degrees will be above and below the tonic root note. Why is that important? The I-IV-V chord progression finds its way into hundreds of simple songs. Having the I, IV and V root notes all together in one spot will prove to be an advantage.

Now to that 5th and 7th thing...

5th fret rule
The A at the 5th fret is the same as the open A string.
The D at the 5th fret is the same as the open D string.
The G at the 5th fret is the same as the open G string.

7th fret rule
E at the 7th fret is the same as the E open string.
A at the 7th fret is the same as the A open string.
D at the 7th fret is the same as the D open string.

Finding the other notes

• From any note where is its 2? Over two frets same string.
• From any note where is its 3? Up a string and back one fret.
• From any note where is its 4? Up a string same fret.
• From any note where is its 5? Up a string and over two frets, or right below on the next string down, same fret.
• From any note where is its 6? Up two strings and back one fret. Right over the 3.
• From any note where is its 7? Up two strings and over one fret. If you want C’s 7th find a C and the 7th is back one fret. This comes in handy when moving back down a scale.
• From any note where is its 8? Up two strings and over two frets.

Hope this helped.

 

[IamGroot]

Bach is great for teaching left hand positions and fluid shifting. Mark your sheet music in pencil. More than one fingering may work. All of my complicated pieces get the position analysis...from Coltrane to Eric Johnson

You have a good teacher.

I am on the road. Let me see if i can get a print out of that invention and i will mark it up.

 

[IamGroot]

What fingering style do you use...3 or 4 fingered. I only do 4 fingered with extensions.

 

[RemoteOutpost]

What fingering style do you use...3 or 4 fingered. I only do 4 fingered with extensions.

I typically use 3 I think but I have big hands so I don't think 4 would be a problem. We haven't really solidified anything just yet in that regard.

 

[IamGroot]

I typically use 3 I think but I have big hands so I don't think 4 would be a problem. We haven't really solidified anything just yet in that regard.

Get with your teacher first and see how he wants you to play it. I dont want to confuse you.

Mushroo had good advise.

 

[iiipopes]

In addition to all the above, purchase a copy of the Simandl method for double bass and get a private teacher to help you with a few lessons. That's one of the things I did as a teenager learning how to read written bass clef jazz charts.

 

[IamGroot]

Fingering based on the 124 Simandl method is very well developed regarding shifting, positions , etc. and there are many variations on that method.

124 is for double bass or electric bass.
1234 can also be used for electric bass and offers some advantages imo.

A rigorous 1234 approach equal to Simandl may be out there, but i can't really name it.

I took "Modern Walking Bass" and marked it up for 1234 and really learned a lot.

 

[Wasnex]

IMHO if you hands are large enough and you plan to play technical music, one finger per fret (OFPF) is the way to go. I use Simandl on string bass and when I picked up bass guitar, I used the same fingering system on both instruments for about 13 years. When I turned pro it quickly became apparent that I would benefit from using OFPF.

IMHO this is something one needs to decide for oneself. If OFPF is the right answer, find an instructor who teaches it at your earliest opportunity.

 

[IamGroot]

I am learning the Bach Invention #4. It doesn't look that hard on paper but since most of the notes I can read are in open position, I'm having trouble playing the 5th and 7th position sections. I'm sure he will explain more at our lesson, it's just very slow-going right now.

I would be very interested to hear how your instructor will want you to accent those 6 tuplets.

 

[pedroims]

You can see the three positions here: