Need help with this staff. PLEASE.

[ploser128]

HI. After searching the web for hours I found nothing. Down below are two links, the first one is to a free lesson by Jon Liebman on his official website where you can find a video lesson and the staff+TAB for it. The second link leads straight to the staff+TAB mentioned earlier.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

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First line first measure first note, reflected as a 3rd_fret-A_string on the TAB, on the staff theres a "C7" above it. What is the meaning of "C7"? Also I have other staff by this author and the same note, 3rd_fret-A_string on the TAB, has "C5" above it there. Please help or point me in the right direction.
Thank you all.

 

[tfer]

The C7 is the Dominant 7 - that's where the Bb comes from.

 

[20db pad]

The symbols you see above the staff are the chords that are the progression of the composition. They're part of a chart that tells several musicians what to play in a tune. The C7 is a C dominant chord, as are the G7 and F7 chords you see. The C7, F7, and G7 chords provide a blues flavor and sound that defines the style.

C5 usually refers to a C chord that is made of roots, fifths, and octaves, and is basically a "rock and roll" chord.

For now, look at these chords as what a keyboard or guitar would play while you focus on the bass part. The bass part is directly related to the chords you see, but that is a concept to explore a little later. There's a LOT of intel about how and why this works, but take one step at a time to avoid confusion and frustration.

The stuff pictured is a blues progression, which uses a simplified version of traditional harmony which is easier for beginning musicians to follow and play along with.

 

[ploser128]

20db pad & tfer, thank you both. Now I can practice knowing I'm not missing anything relevant to my noob level. Aga

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Here is something that will help pull how all those chord names relate to the tab and standard notation you have in you worksheets.

Chord Formulas

Chords are made from the scale notes of the scale you are playing in.

That C7 chord is made from the 1-3-5-b7 notes of the scale that has the name of the chord, i.e. C7 will use the C major scale and be made from the C, E, G & Bb notes (1-3-5-b7) of the C major scale.

That C5 chord would be made from the 1 & 5 notes of the C major scale.

Now how many of those scale notes get into our bass lines is a rather long story, and need not be explored right now. My point in posting is to give you an idea of how all those standard notation notes, chord names, etc. all tie together. Something to lift the fog or turn on the light at the end of the tunnel.

Go have fun.

 

[megafiddle]

C7 is a common chord in a C C7 F progression. All in key of C.

Do we really want to use a different key or scale to accomodate one accidental?

-

 

[MalcolmAmos]

This is incorrect. "That" C7 is NOT made from the 1-3-5-b7 notes of the scale that has the name of the chord.

A C7 is from the F Major Scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. It is the FIFTH (Dominant) scale-degree harmonized through the 7th (i.e., C, E, G, Bb). Hence the term Dominant Seventh.

A C7 chord is made up by stacking the Fifth scale-degree (Dominant), Seventh scale-degree (Leading-Tone), Second scale-degree (Supertonic), and Fourth scale-degree (Subdominant).

Now we have made it confusing for Ploser128. Stacking the C scale or stacking the Fifth scale degree of the F scale (which is C) we end up with the same thing, namely C E G Bb.

Ploser, in music how you get somewhere has a lot to do with how you were taught. Sparkee is correct in what he said, however, so was I; we both got to the same place, but, took different roads. We both ended up stacking 3rds from the C note.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

In all this I do not think we ever got around to how to stack 3rds. Kinda important.


C Major Scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B. If you know the scale notes you can come up with the chords for that scale by stacking the scale notes in 3rds, (every other note). For example:

Notes..Degree..Spelling..................Chord .....Function
C........R..........CEGB..R-3-5-7........Cmaj7......I (tonic)
D....... 2..........DFAC.. R-b3-5-b7.. Dmin7......ii
E........3..........EGBD...R-b3-5-b7....Emin7......iii
F........4..........FACE ...R-3-5-7....... Fmaj7.....IV (subdominant)
G........5.........GBDF... R-3-5-b7......G7.......... V (dominant)
A........6..........ACEG... R-b3-5-b7...Amin7.......vi
B........7..........BDFA.... R-b3-b5-b7..Bmin7b5...vii (diminished)​

Why is the D chord minor? If you compare the DFAC to the notes in the D major scale the D major scale will have an F# and a C#. Your DFAC has the 3 and 7 flatted for a spelling of R-b3-5-b7 and that spelling makes a Dm7 chord. All minor chords will have a b3. All major chords will have a natural 3. Notice where the 7’s and b7’s fall.

F major scale is F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. For grins, go stack the F major scale. Once you stack a (just one) scale you will always know how to do it. And then once you know how to do that you can always come up with the notes for any chord within that scale/key. Stacking the F scale will let you see where Sparkee was coming from.

Have fun.

 

[Pacman]

This is incorrect. "That" C7 is NOT made from the 1-3-5-b7 notes of the scale that has the name of the chord.

A C7 is from the F Major Scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. It is the FIFTH (Dominant) scale-degree harmonized through the 7th (i.e., C, E, G, Bb). Hence the term Dominant Seventh.

A C7 chord is made up by stacking the Fifth scale-degree (Dominant), Seventh scale-degree (Leading-Tone), Second scale-degree (Supertonic), and Fourth scale-degree (Subdominant).

Actually, what Malcom posted *is* correct. And while your explanation is more in depth, it's also very confusing to someone who asked "What's a C7?"

 

[tfer]

Malcolm is a favorite poster of mine recently. Great explanations and patient.

 

[Pacman]

I was only addressing Malcolm. And, what he said was not correct - unless he was referring to a C Mixolydian scale. Maybe missed that? And furthermore, my answer (confusing or not to the OP) is absolutely correct.

In a public forum, everyone gets to read, so your answers matter. Your answer is partially correct. I could be just as correct if I said "C7 is from the G melodic minor scale, built off the 4th degree." (Or F melodic minor, or D harmonic minor) However, it doesn't help the original poster. And Malcom was correct when he said the chord was formed from the 1 3 5 and flat 7 of the scale.

 

[Pacman]

Now don't get confusing!!!

Actually, had you read what Malcom actually typed: "C7 will use the C major scale and be made from the C, E, G & Bb notes (1-3-5-b7) of the C major scale", you would understand why he is incorrect (and confusing), and I am correct. Clue: Dominant scale-degree.

C7, or C Dominant Seven, is derived as I explained: From F Major (or even F Melodic Minor, as you so aptly pointed out) - confusing or not. But NOT G Melodic Minor, or D Harmonic Minor, or even A Phrygian, and so many others.

So yes, answers (as in correct answers) matter. The labels are derived from the Common Practice Period. Really, I didn't make any of this up. Just reporting the facts.

You're picking nits. Malcolm was completely correct in explaining to someone who didn't know what a C7 chord is.

 

[megafiddle]

C7 is a common chord in a C C7 F progression. All in key of C.

V V7 I in F = more common.

Yes, the C7 is natural to the key of F. And many songs use chords that are not natural to the key. But they still sound like they belong to the key.

Do we really want to use a different key or scale to accomodate one accidental?

If it were 2 accidentals, then what?

Then there are two. I think the important thing is that they are accidentals, not key changes.

-

 

[JTE]

What are the notes of a major triad? 1, 3, 5

What are the notes in a minor triad? 1, b3, 5

What are the notes in a major 7? 1, 3, 5, 7

What are the notes of a 7th chord? 1, 3, 5 b7.

Or, to phrase it another way. What are 1, 3, 5 ,b7 of C? C E G Bb. And that IS a C7.

The only utility of thinking of C7 as the 5, 7, 2, 4 of F major is if I'm playing that C7 in the key of where it is functioning as the V chord. If I'm playing "Johnny B. Goode" ic C, I am NOT thinking of that chord as V of F.

One would not explain FMaj7 as the 4, 6, 2, 3 of C AND the 1,3,5,7 of F. That presupposes that you'very already established the chord'function. And it is of utterly no utility in teaching someone how to determine the correct spelling of chords.

Malcom's explanation is absolutely correct for telling someone how to derive the correct notes in a 7th chord.

 

[joebar]

C7 will use the C major scale and be made from the C, E, G & Bb notes (1-3-5-b7) of the C major scale.

A C7 is from the F Major Scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. It is the FIFTH (Dominant) scale-degree harmonized through the 7th (i.e., C, E, G, Bb). Hence the term Dominant Seventh.

it's a tie ball game here. anyone could win

 

[megafiddle]

Not "Key Change", change of the Tonal Center.

Ok, I did make a bad choice of terms.

In key of F, the C7 resolves to a tonic center of F, and so has a tonic center of F ( V V7 I ).

In key of C, the C7 still sounds to me like it has a tonic center of C ( I I7 IV ). And I believe it's because the IV also sounds like it has a tonic center of C and wants to resolve back to the C.

If there was an actual key change from C to F, then the C7 would have a tonic center of F.

-

 

[Pacman]

So... following the below directions...

If I'm in the Key of F Major - F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F - and I want to build a "C7" chord, à la "1, 3, 5, b7":

assuming that 1 = C;
and 3 = E;
and 5 = G;
then b7 = Bbb

???

Something doesn't seem right.

Because you misread. Nobody said anything other than use 1 3 5 and b7 of the Major scale built of the named root. You're making it overly complicated for a beginner. You joined 2 days ago, so you don't know that this is de rigur for TB theory discussions. And while you may think it shows off how much you understand about theory, it does nothing helpful to someone with little or no knowledge looking for a simple explanation. Or as my music school theory teacher used to say "you've told us something we don't need to understand for another 2 years."

 

[JTE]

YOU keep bringing the key of F major into the discussion. No one has said that the chord created at the fifth degree by harmonizing F major is NOT C E G Bb and called C7. We are saying that the common description of chords is based on the root of the chord. That is how we distinguish different chords. Major is 1 3 5, minor is 1 b3 5, Maj 7 is 1 3 5 7, min7 is 1 b3 5 b7, (dom)7 is 1 3 5 b7, diminished is 1 b3 b5, Augmented is 1 3 #5, min7b5 (sometimes called "half diminished" but I don't use that) is 1 b3 b5 bb7, etc. Start at the root of the chord, and apply the formula to get the chord spelling.

The dom7 occurs only once in a harmonized major scale. But the Maj7 and min7 occur twice- and it again serves no utility to tell someone starting out that the way to figure out what notes are in an Amin7 is to take 6 1 3 5 of the relative major, or to take 2 4 6 1 of the b7 of the root. A C7 IS C E G Bb and those notes ARE 1 3 5 b7 in C. Now it's been 30 years since I studied formal music theory, but the book used at the university did indeed introduce chords by referencing intervals from the root of the chord. It's the most direct and least obfuscation way to do it.

BTW, there's no signature to defer to.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Confusion about 7th chords | TalkBass.com
Is this ALWAYS a dominant 7th? | TalkBass.com
Chord problems | TalkBass.com

P.S. IMHO, the discussion in this thread sounds like this:

"Hey, man, what a nice Honda Accord car."

"It's not Honda Accord. It's MY CAR."

"I know it's your car, but it's Honda Accord."

"Once again, it's MY CAR not Honda Accord."
...

 

[Febs]

YOU keep bringing the key of F major into the discussion. No one has said that the chord created at the fifth degree by harmonizing F major is NOT C E G Bb and called C7. We are saying that the common description of chords is based on the root of the chord.

Exactly. It is simply describing how the chord is spelled by using intervals in relation to the root. It's not intended to be a functional harmony analysis.

That is how we distinguish different chords. Major is 1 3 5, minor is 1 b3 5, Maj 7 is 1 3 5 7, min7 is 1 b3 5 b7, (dom)7 is 1 3 5 b7, diminished is 1 b3 b5, Augmented is 1 3 #5, min7b5 (sometimes called "half diminished" but I don't use that) is 1 b3 b5 bb7, etc. Start at the root of the chord, and apply the formula to get the chord spelling.

The dom7 occurs only once in a harmonized major scale. But the Maj7 and min7 occur twice-

Two small corrections:

The min7(b5) chord (a.k.a. half-diminished) is 1 b3 b5 b7.

There are three min7 chords in the harmonized major scale.