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Need help with very strange amp/cab problem

I would like to jump in and make a few general comments with regards to this particular subject/topic so it doesn't turn into an issue where players don't trust "D" class from any/all manufacturers.

Speakers do not present themselves as purely resistive loads to amplifiers. In fact, they can be highly complex networks of resistive, capacitive and inductive components. The reason why inductive and capacitive components are of particular interst is that the voltage and current are not in phase with each other, whereas with a pure resistance they are.

Why does this matter? Because most amplifiers (regardless of class) use global feedback to improve real-world performance. For audio amps, generally they are voltage feedback, meaning that a portion of the output voltage is fed back to the input (ideally) 180 degrees out of phase, to correct for non-linearities like rising output impedances, frequency response and undesireable distortions.

When the load is not resistive, the phase shifts between voltage and current can cause instabilities within the amp's global (and local) feedback networks. This is something that all designers are aware of but because of the wildly possibilities in speaker system designs, we do our best to cover reasonable possibilities of such loads as it's impossible to anticipate everything. These kinds of loads also store and release energy back into the amplifier at various times in the waveform's period, and releasing energy at the wrong time is the most common cause for instability.

We have seen several instances of amplifiers becoming marginally unstable due to loads that are considrably outside the industry norms, either because of defective components, incorrect wiring of the crossovers, broken or damaged parts or poor/incorrect designs. Since each power amp design is different, some amps may appear to work ok, some will blow up or in the event of those with very sophisticated protection circuitry and robust design will protect themselves.

On class AB (traditional) power amps, what happens is that the amp tends to oscillate when connected to the load and driven with signal, getting worse the harder the amp is driven and when clipped may stick to the rails, burst into catastrophic oscillation, etc. On a class B amp where the bias current goes to zero at the signal zero crossing point, this discontinuity creates a particularly vulnerable opportunity for oscillation as it generates an "impulse" at this point.

With class D amplifiers, there is always a high frequency modulation carrier present, though it's filtered, a portion of it remains. Take this high frequency carrier and drive it into the right load (incuctive, capacitive and resistive) where the network stores and releases energy at the right times and the amplifier could fail spectacularly. This is why the class D amp goes into protect without signal, it's due to interactions with the residual carrier. Designers of (quality) class D amplifiers are well aware of this and incorporate sophisticated monitoring and protection mechanisms to shut the amps down in the event any of this is detected. In my experience, it is usually caused by a fairly large, under-damped capacitace in either an impedance correcting Zobel position or by an incorrectly calculated crossover filter where the capacitance becomes dominant and the transfer function looking into the crossover from the amp looks very LC with to little R. Since there is always L (inductors and the speakers themselves) generally it's an incorrectly calculated C in the crossover or undervalued R in the Zobel.

I openly encourage everyone to read through this, understanding how complicated it really is (I do appologize how tech-oriented it is but there's also a substantial group of folks on this forum that will understand every single word), to see what we as amp manufacturers consider when designing amp products for you guys and how much effort goes into the analysis of what's out there in the real world and how we can failure-proof designs so they are even more and more reliable. Used to be that am amp would burst into flames when presented with an illegal load, but now, most do a pretty darn good job of protecting themselves.

Hope this helps
 
Thanks agedhorse. A lot of that was over my head but from what I'm understanding there is something with the cab that is causing the amp to go into protective mode right ? Even if the cab sounds great with another amp ? Will it hurt the other amp (Markbass) in anyway ? I can't seem to get Don at LDS to return my emails. Last email he sent he said he tested the cab and it worked. So it looks like I have to live with the issue. I don't use the G-K as much as the MB so I guess I'm ok as long as the LDS does not damage my MB amp.
 
I do not know for sure if it's the cabinet, but it is certainly something that must be considered when troubleshooting your problem. It must also be considered that it is simply a defective power amplifier.

I encourage you to open a discussion with both manufacturers with regards to assisting you in your troubleshooting efforts. You should not accept defeat with your problem, while it's a little tricky to troubleshoot and requires an engineering approach, I suspect the resolution to be productive and uneventful.

There is also the potential of damage to your other amp if the problem is within the speaker. That's why I encourage you to get this sorted out.
 
Hate to resurrect this thing but let's not lose sight of the fact that this cab once WORKED FINE. B-string pointed this out in post 16. What are the chances of pulling the crossover and looking for something obviously wrong/loose/broken/burned/disconnected? Maybe doing a crossover swap for a new one from LDS and then have LDS bench-test yours so we get a final disposition on this?
 
Hate to resurrect this thing but let's not lose sight of the fact that this cab once WORKED FINE. B-string pointed this out in post 16. What are the chances of pulling the crossover and looking for something obviously wrong/loose/broken/burned/disconnected? Maybe doing a crossover swap for a new one from LDS and then have LDS bench-test yours so we get a final disposition on this?

I'm going to call Don at lunch. I'm thinking the same thing. It did work with the G-K amp when I first got the cab so something must have happen when I took the cab to practice. It was a 30 min drive and one road is a dirt road. (note the G-K amp did not leave my house) The thing is the cab works and sounds great with my Markbass amp. If something happen to the cab you would think it would not work with either amp.
 
I think where your analysis is wrong is you're expecting each amp to have identical sets of "go/no-go" criteria regarding load suitability. Also who knows whether they're even checking the same parameters with respect to the load, and how much weight each parameter carries in each amp's go/no-go decision.
 
I think where your analysis is wrong is you're expecting each amp to have identical sets of "go/no-go" criteria regarding load suitability. Also who knows whether they're even checking the same parameters with respect to the load, and how much weight each parameter carries in each amp's go/no-go decision.

Excellent comments.

There are many different and unrelated parameters that can cause difficulties with amplifiers and different amp designs all have different strengths and weaknesses with regards to fault tolerances. Cost also plays into this, it costs real money to make a substantially more robust amplifier and not all customers can afford this level of robustness.

One thing that I spend a great deal of time with is studying stability into non-standard loads and how protection systems can better cope with these without exposing the amp to additional fault modes. This means understanding the potentials, analyzing the RANGES of parameters and simulating variations to be sure we have as good of a grasp as possible of the implications the real world presents. As a speaker designer, I am even more aware of the potential impact a non-conforming esign can have on an amplifier and I generally simulate the speaker system as a compete network, looking for potential pitfalls... things like areas of sub-nominal impedance and out of bounds reactive areas. I wish this was the norm, but sadly it is not. The pro audio industry is generally MUCH further along on this than the MI industry and with only a few exceptions this is not nearly as much of an issue. I come from the pro audio side of the industry which is why I am more focused on this particular topic.
 
Mechanically, poorly graded dirt roads can be murder on equipment -- especially if the equipment's being transported in a heavy-duty vehicle or trailer that's only lightly loaded, i.e. where the springs aren't compressed and so there's no load to act as a damper. In such a case, the equipment is, in effect, riding inside a trailer (or truck) without any suspension at all, and will "feel" every pebble. Especially if the trailer's (or truck's) tires are inflated for max load and there's no give to the sidewalls because of the light load. You can see this on some unloaded semi boxes while they travel down a bumpy road -- you can see the tires running on their centers and sometimes they'll even hop off the road surface over a bump. The point is that the box will follow right along because the springs (or the air ride) have no load to work against. Maybe this is what happened to your cab. It'd be interesting to hear what type of vehicle was used to transport that cab and what else was in it. If it was an otherwise-empty 1-ton dually with the rear tires inflated to 80 psi and the cab was sitting over the axle or near the tailgate, then there's your problem. On the other hand, if it was a vehicle with a cushy ride, then maybe, like B-string suggested, it was something in the crossover that was just waiting to let go anyway, like a cold solder joint, or a choke not tied down tight, or . . .

Also I'm wondering if there's just a tiny TINY bit of voice coil rubbing now because of the bumpy ride, but I admit right up front I have no idea what I'm talking about on that point 'cause I've never seen a voice coil go out of misalignment because of physical shock. (Does this actually happen?) Plus again it would depend on "how bumpy" the ride (not just the road surface) was.
 
Hey Andy,
Can i ask if you know anything about Class H Amps because thats what mine is, Class H ?
Is there a big difference in a `Class H` amp against lets say the `Class D` amps ?
Im only aksing because i dont think you mentioned Class H.
G.L
 
Class H amps have much similarity to class B and AB amps, and in fact they are "identical" except for the addition of an additional higher voltage power supply and commutating switches that switch the high rails on and off only when they are needed. This improves the efficiency and the semiconductor safe operating area, reduces the size of the power transformer (or power supply if SPMS) compared with a class B or AB amp of similar power rating. The drawback is that it requires more parts and the switching must be done very precisely to avoid anomolies. There are many good examples out there, the larger QSC amps (except the PL-380 which is class D) are one.

Class D is completely different, the waveform is broken up into a PCM representation, level shifted and then reconstructed. The advantage is way higher efficiency and better ability to drive reactive (especially inductive) loads but are very hard to design well and make highly reliable.
 
Mechanically, poorly graded dirt roads can be murder on equipment -- especially if the equipment's being transported in a heavy-duty vehicle or trailer that's only lightly loaded, i.e. where the springs aren't compressed and so there's no load to act as a damper. In such a case, the equipment is, in effect, riding inside a trailer (or truck) without any suspension at all, and will "feel" every pebble. Especially if the trailer's (or truck's) tires are inflated for max load and there's no give to the sidewalls because of the light load. You can see this on some unloaded semi boxes while they travel down a bumpy road -- you can see the tires running on their centers and sometimes they'll even hop off the road surface over a bump. The point is that the box will follow right along because the springs (or the air ride) have no load to work against. Maybe this is what happened to your cab. It'd be interesting to hear what type of vehicle was used to transport that cab and what else was in it. If it was an otherwise-empty 1-ton dually with the rear tires inflated to 80 psi and the cab was sitting over the axle or near the tailgate, then there's your problem. On the other hand, if it was a vehicle with a cushy ride, then maybe, like B-string suggested, it was something in the crossover that was just waiting to let go anyway, like a cold solder joint, or a choke not tied down tight, or . . .

Also I'm wondering if there's just a tiny TINY bit of voice coil rubbing now because of the bumpy ride, but I admit right up front I have no idea what I'm talking about on that point 'cause I've never seen a voice coil go out of misalignment because of physical shock. (Does this actually happen?) Plus again it would depend on "how bumpy" the ride (not just the road surface) was.

The dirt road ride was pretty short and I took it easy.
Anyway, took my LDS cab to practice (no dirt roads this time) and when I got back I tried the G-K amp though the cab again and now it works ! Must be something in the cab that is loose ?
 
> Must be something in the cab that is loose?

Possibly. Pull the speakers and get in there with flashlight and fingers and look around. Take pics of the crossover if possible, post them somewhere, let us look at them before you button it back up.
 
I just got a new LDS 15/6 cab and it sounds great and have used it the last coupe of days with no problems.

Tonight I connected my G-K MB2-500 amp to it and when I do the amp makes this loud steady clicking noise and the power button flashes with the click. The clicking happens whether a bass is plugged in or not. When I plugged my other cab into the amp (by itself) the amp works fine no clicking. The clicking still happens with both cabs plugged in. I've tried both a speakon and 1/4" cable with the same results.
Then when I plugged my Markbass LMT800 into the LDS cab there was no clicking noise and it sounded normal.
What the heck is going on ? I'm at a loss.

1. GK uses the same class D amplifiers as many manufacturers in our industry including GB. This amplifier was designed and by Bang and Olufsen and is an extremely good design. As others have said on this thread, power amplifiers are designed to handle a range of phase shift in cabinets caused by inductive and capacitive loading. Some cabinet designs can present a load that is out of the design range of the amplifier. When this happens the amplifiers in this case will not allow signal to pass. I am guessing this cabinet has a crossover that presents a marginally acceptable load to this amplifier and will sometimes depending on conditions cause the amplifier protect. I would like to work with LDS to see if this issue can be resolved, but I am not familiar with the company or its products. If you could put me in touch with them it would be appreciated.

2. Class H amplifiers use two sets of power supplies a low Voltage supply and a high Voltage supply. At low power operation the amplifier operates from the low Voltage supply, when the signal gets large the amplifier switches to the high Voltage supply. This type of design is very efficient, resulting in less heat and power drawn from the wall. As a result the power supply is lighter which saves considerable weight, however the design has more parts and is more expensive to produce. This topology is more efficient than class A/B but not as efficient as class D. GK uses class H designs in the 700RB, 1001RB, 2001RB and Fusion550.

Bob
 
1. GK uses the same class D amplifiers as many manufacturers in our industry including GB. This amplifier was designed and by Bang and Olufsen and is an extremely good design. As others have said on this thread, power amplifiers are designed to handle a range of phase shift in cabinets caused by inductive and capacitive loading. Some cabinet designs can present a load that is out of the design range of the amplifier. When this happens the amplifiers in this case will not allow signal to pass. I am guessing this cabinet has a crossover that presents a marginally acceptable load to this amplifier and will sometimes depending on conditions cause the amplifier protect. I would like to work with LDS to see if this issue can be resolved, but I am not familiar with the company or its products. If you could put me in touch with them it would be appreciated.

2. Class H amplifiers use two sets of power supplies a low Voltage supply and a high Voltage supply. At low power operation the amplifier operates from the low Voltage supply, when the signal gets large the amplifier switches to the high Voltage supply. This type of design is very efficient, resulting in less heat and power drawn from the wall. As a result the power supply is lighter which saves considerable weight, however the design has more parts and is more expensive to produce. This topology is more efficient than class A/B but not as efficient as class D. GK uses class H designs in the 700RB, 1001RB, 2001RB and Fusion550.

Bob

Thanks Bob ! I just sent you a PM with Don's (LDS) info.

And it's happening again. Did not move the cab or amp and now again they won't work together. I guess they just won't work together which is a shame as when they did work together they sounded great.
 

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