Double Bass Need more cowbel- I mean OUTPUT!

[GradyBass]

hey all

I have a Bjorn Stoll Brian Bromberg signature with a full circle on it. It goes into the Fishman Pro Platinum EQ, then to my SVT3PRO head and SVT410hlf cab. *phew*

I'm not getting clear, sound out of this setup, and it certainly is not cutting through anything in my band. When I'm playing in jazzy situations it works alright, but my main gig is a 4 piece rock group, and I love seeing doubles rock out. My band is all for having me do that, but I can't get good output! And I'm competing against a rhodes, korg + triton, 2 guitars, 3 vocals and the drummer. We all do a little bit of everything. My Warwicks are fantastic (obviously THEY have no problem cutting through!) But I'd really like to get the double in on this action. It's only going to help my intonation and experience with this thing. I've been playing BG for 12+ years, and double for 8+ months

I'm a silly guy (DB newbie!) and can't remember what strings I have on there. They are hybrid. Here's the pic:

Any help will be just greatly appreciated. New pup? New pre? New amp? New player?!

 

[wxfloyd]

how old is the full circle? did you buy it new or used? I ask because, if not properly handled, the wire on the full circle can fail. Its unfortunate, but luckily fishman seems to have very good customer support. You can try plugging the full circle directly into the SVT and see what you get. But doing that will yield an impedance mis-match so you won't get an ideal comparison. Have you tried running one of your Warwicks passively through the Fishman Pre? What I'm getting at is try to do a process of elimination to see if there is a failure somewhere in the signal chain. The other thing you might do is make sure the full circle was installed correctly. if you can't verify that yourself, try finding someone locally who can, be it a luthier or fellow DB player.

 

[Phil Redman]

If your Fishman is the bass version it'll have a "Depth" knob. This is a variable high-pass filter. Try turning it to the left to dial out some of the lowest bass frequencies, then turn the Volume up on the Fishman and/or your Ampeg. This setting should cut better than leaving the Depth wide open and it doesn't mess with your tone as much as twiddling with the eq does.

Also the voicing of the Full Circle can be changed somewhat by quarter-turning it. If I recall correctly, when the wire is aligned with a corner of the bridge foot the output will be more focused than if the wire aligns with the face of the bridge foot (might be the other way around).

Thanks,
Phil

 

[Tom Baldwin]

Those look like Obligatos. Known for great sound in your living room, not so much for their ability to cut thru a loud band. A different string might help. Good advice in post #3 - the FC can be very bottom heavy. I'm not sure what's up with post #2, it doesn't sound like you think any of your gear is broken, am I right? Just not getting the best sound yet.

I think if those small tweaks don't do it fo you, you should head to the Rockabilly forums, where they deal with the issue of insane volumes as a matter of course.

 

[wxfloyd]

'm not sure what's up with post #2, it doesn't sound like you think any of your gear is broken, am I right? Just not getting the best sound yet.

Well he said that he wasn't getting good output so I took that as the signal isn't very hot. Plus the full circles have been known to fail if the wire is stressed too hard, especially where it comes out of the adjuster wheel. Just trying to narrow things down to see if its an equipment or installation issue.

Another thing to consider is EQ. To expand a little on what Phil said, check your low cut filter (Depth). Also are you cutting your mids at either the pre or SVT? If so bring them back up, they are crucial for cutting through in a live situation.

Are you taking the pre into the instrument input on the SVT? One downfall of the Pro Platinum Pre (IMO) is that the output is an instrument level output, not line level. What this means is that you can't, for example, properly drive a standard power amp directly with the Pre, its signal is too low. When I had the Pro Platinum bass, I tried going into the effects return on a combo, but the level was WAY too low. Instead, I had to flatten the EQ on the combo and go into the instrument input.

 

[Phil Redman]

I'd check these three things on the FC:

1) are the bridge feet in full contact with the top of the bass
2) is there an uneven gap between the face of the bridge adjusters and the bridge (indicating a tilted bridge...not good)
3) is the bridge in contact with threaded side of the the FC's active adjuster (it shouldn't be...there should be some air in there)

 

[Phalex]

If you want to try something crazy, see about getting a transducer from these guys: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] The PU in my cardboard box bass is hot as hell, and it's very full range. I play it with my rock band at every gig. Mounting it might be funny, on the box it's taped to the inside, but I don't see why an easily removable adhesive wouldn't do the trick. I bet it would cost you $20.00 or less, and the thing really works well!

 

[GradyBass]

They are obligatos (the name totally struck up as YES!)

My FC is new, and there is even space on both sides of the adjusters, as well as a lil bit of air for the wire side to breathe. Now, to be a little more specific to my issue here: I AM getting output. If it's just me in my living room, yes I can hear fine. With one or 2 other softer musicians we don't have any problems. But when we throw drums and rhodes and loud rock guitarists, I'm drowned out. You can feel it, but you can't really hear it. I'm not too thrilled about the actual tone of it, too. I get massive feedback when I'm close to the amp, and the distance is very sensitive. I can't get closer than 2 or 3 feet before it starts goin nuts. As far as I can tell, we're not having any breakages or failures in the signal change, but I will have to change the depth gate and all of the other suggestions. What strings do you recommend for helping me cut through the mix?


I will have to try finagling the eq to your suggestions. Please keep whatever ideas you have coming!


Thanks so much, fellows!

 

[wxfloyd]

there is even space on both sides of the adjusters, as well as a lil bit of air for the wire side to breathe.

If that means that you have space on both sides of EACH adjuster wheel, there's your problem. The Pickup isn't installed correctly. You need to have the NON threaded side of the adjuster wheel flush against the bridge. The THREADED side should be the only side with space between the wheel and bridge. Here is a part of the manual that shows it:

 

[GradyBass]

My bridge is illustration B. Maybe I'll open it up just a smidge more to see if that'll help, but the boys and Lemur set it that way and said it'd be fine.

 

[Jason Hollar]

What is that thing that appears clamped to the bridge?

 

[eadg52]

What is that thing that appears clamped to the bridge?

A tuner? That's the place I use for those clamp-type tuners that work off vibration. Quite handy actually.

Steve

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Not trying to be mean or anything, but my experience was that when I had only been playing DB for 8+ months (after playing BG for a LONG time) was that the problem was at the beginning of the signal chain. That is to say, I was not getting a full, clear, projecting, warm sound out of the instrument itself. And as Rufus Reid says, if you have a thin, weak, unfocused sound acoustically, when you put the bass through an amp you get a LOUD thin, weak, unfocused sound.

If you have a teacher, ask them to start working on physical approach so that you can get w big sound acoustically (it's not just pulling harder) and project more acoustically. Developing that amount of focus and precison with the coordination of left and right hands will increase exponentially the projection you get with no amp. So when you plug in, the focused sound is already there and you just tweak the amp.

If you don't have a teacher, I highly recommend getting one.

 

[Alex Scott]

Ed Speaks the truth. Lessons with Rufus Reid would probably do the trick, or lessons with someone who's sound you admire would do the trick too.

Also, I never have been able to use a preamp with an amp. Is that a tube preamp in your amp? Could be some phase cancellation or interference or something. maybe your preamp is set too high compared to your power amp part. I usually like a 8 o'clock preamp and a 1-2 o'clock power amp (or scale it down from there on both sides)

Something to try before getting a more Double-Bass style amp would be to slightly accentuate the mid range, and pull the bass down a little bit. One of my teachers use to suggest setting the volume a little louder than you want it, getting the tone clear, then backing the volume down a little from there. That way you have a little more headroom.

 

[GradyBass]

A tuner? That's the place I use for those clamp-type tuners that work off vibration. Quite handy actually.

Steve

Yep, that's my Intellitouch. I love that thing! Some people clamp it to the peg box, but I like it at the bridge. No noticable effect on my tone (as some vibration nazi attacked me on).

Not trying to be mean or anything, but my experience was that when I had only been playing DB for 8+ months (after playing BG for a LONG time) was that the problem was at the beginning of the signal chain.

If you don't have a teacher, I highly recommend getting one.

I should clarify- when I said there's nothing wrong with my signal chain, I meant nothing is broken or malfunctioning in my signal chain. I'm sure with more work/experimenting/basic knowledge I can make something decent happen, I'm just looking for a good place to start. I'm 99% sure it's flagrant user error

AND I have been searching for a great DB teacher in Southern California. Anyone know of anyone?

I certainly don't think you're mean, and I appreciate everyone's help!

 

[Jason Hollar]

Ed's right. You've got to get a big sound acoustically first.

I feel for you! I came from electric bass to DB and had many of the same issues.

Now I find the better my acoustic tone, the better it projects through my amp.

Dig in buddy!

Oh yeah...8 months...I've been thumping for ten years and I finally feel like I'm starting to get somewhere!

 

[GradyBass]

without a doubt, going from BG for 12 years to DB is by far to most humbling experience ever as a musician, especially as a bass player! It's the same! ... but completely different =)

And I'm getting a good sound acoustically. My Bromberg is loud and lovely! AHHHHH! This is frustrating (but in a good way. It's making me work hard and I hypothesize that the payoff will be truly rewarding)

 

[greitzer]

They are obligatos (the name totally struck up as YES!) . . .With one or 2 other softer musicians we don't have any problems. But when we throw drums and rhodes and loud rock guitarists, I'm drowned out. You can feel it, but you can't really hear it. I'm not too thrilled about the actual tone of it, too. I get massive feedback when I'm close to the amp, and the distance is very sensitive. I can't get closer than 2 or 3 feet before it starts goin nuts. . . What strings do you recommend for helping me cut through the mix? . . .

Thanks so much, fellows!

Grady, welcome to the wonderful world of trying to make it all work. There can't be a more challenging instrument than DB in loud situations. It's really, really hard to get a DB to play loud enough to be heard over other loud instruments.

Based on my own experience playing with a Very Loud Big Band (20 instruments), here are a few things to consider.

1) Getting within 2 or 3 feet of the amp is going to bring you feedback if you're at high volumes. To try to help deal with this, make sure that you and your bass are in between the pickup and the amp (i.e., make sure the amp can't "see" the pickup directly). For example, have the amp directly behind you. Also, raising the amp (if you haven't already) on a chair or a stand could help. It may not help at all, but it might, and it's a cheap thing you could try, to cut down on feedback when you're jammed in close to the amp.

2) For me, going through an external preamp has gotten me a bit more volume before feedback sets in. Not a lot more volume, but a little. I use the Fishman Platinum Plus Pro EQ model, but there are others out there as well.

3) String wise, you might try Spirocores or Pirastro's Flat Chromesteels. It sounds like you're playing pizz, not using the bow. Both of these strings are very bright, strong pizz strings that really ring out. They're not as good for bowing, although people do use them for such.

4) Come to terms with having your sound be felt, but not actually heard. There will be times, with a rock band, when that's all you can do. DB will never cut through noise the way electric bass guitar does.

5) Follow others' advice about developing the volume and strength in your playing (as I'm sure you are doing). Over time, it does help, it will make a difference.

Good luck!

 

[greitzer]

Oops -- I see you're already using the Fishman pre. Sorry about that...

 

[drurb]

Also, I never have been able to use a preamp with an amp. Is that a tube preamp in your amp? Could be some phase cancellation or interference or something.

Just two notes. A pre-amp feeding an amp can be and is quite successfully used by many (including many here). Second, "phase-cancellation" will not depend on the circuit topology (tubes, solid-state, etc.). It can come about in this case as a result of the output of the amp canceling the acoustic vibration of the instrument. While that will depend on the level of the amplification and the distance between the bass and the speaker, if it does occur, it can be remedied to a large extent by the ever-useful phase-reversal switch on a good pre-amp. In any case, I really don't think this is the problem.