Need more power!

[Spiffing]

I'm the bassist in an alternative rock/hardcore influenced band, and I've been playing on a less than optimum rig for a long time (an old Ampeg B2R one through an SVT-410HE). It was muddy, clipped, and still wasn't loud enough. I finally decided to upgrade, and started by grabbing a Little Mark II for an extra 100 watts of power (plus higher overall quality). Running through the SVT the tone is much improved, but it still clips and is just short of the power it needs to cut through the mix. I play in drop D as well, and it struggles the most with these lower notes.

So here's my question. Should a cabinet upgrade be enough to improve my volume and stop the clipping? Or should I return the LMII and pick up a stronger head? From some quick looking around, the SVT-410HLF seems like a reasonable next step, with a stronger low-end and half the impedance (which I assume means more watts and more volume/power, but perhaps I'm wrong?). Either way, thanks!

 

[Selta]

How are you EQing? Start there before you start throwing money out the window.
A B2R into a 410 should be OK for everything up to a medium gig. Things bigger than that usually have a PA.
"Gaining" an extra 100W will not buy you any volume in most situations.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Do you have a PA? What are you competing against? Ampeg cabs are not known for efficiency.
The LMII should be plenty of juice. I have a 500W Aggy AG500 through a nice sealed cab, and it's ridiculously loud.

 

[Mystic Michael]

So here's my question. Should a cabinet upgrade be enough to improve my volume and stop the clipping? Or should I return the LMII and pick up a stronger head?

Without knowing the ratings on any of your current gear, I will tell you that in general terms, you fix a problem with clipping by increasing the amount of amp headroom - not by upgrading your cabinet.

MM

 

[rbonner]

The fact that you are playing drop D right off the bat tells me to try an SVT-410HLF to get the big bottom. Dont mess with B410HLF's. When you talk about Hard core etc... You might wanna look at two of them. Then power the cab/cabs with a good solid 450/500 watts per channel. You can whomp the crap outta them and they will respond with a great sound and lots of air movement. The 410 is rated down to 28Hz, which blows away that HE cab you've currently got. But the HLF is more cab to lug around. Its bigger and deeper, but it needs that stuff to make the bottom end. I'm a 4PRO guy and those will power a pair of HLF's and destroy the world, which is your goal right? BOB

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I'm the bassist in an alternative rock/hardcore influenced band...

If you're competing against screaming guitars with tons of bass, you've lost. The guitars have to cut their bass, at which point you'll suddenly be heard.

...grabbing a Little Mark II for an extra 100 watts...

Hardly worth it. Having 10x the power might get you twice as loud, assuming your cabs could handle it.

I play in drop D as well, and it struggles the most with these lower notes.

So do everyone's ears. The human ear simply doesn't hear bass as well as mids, which is another reason for guitars to turn down. The amp and cabs struggle hardest to produce deep lows, so it's a double whammy.

Should a cabinet upgrade be enough to improve my volume and stop the clipping?

As others have said, clipping is an amp overload. Different cabs may have increased volume, which simply delays the problem. If you turn up, the guitars might, and you're off to the races again.

...half the impedance (which I assume means more watts and more volume/power, but perhaps I'm wrong?).

You're both right and wrong. Lower impedance will get more power from the amp, but not nearly enough. Even double the power only gets you 3dB louder, which is insignificant.

A more powerful head won't clip and you'll have good headroom. But if your cabs run out of loudness, all the power in the world won't help.

A cab runs out of steam for three reasons: 1: Power compression, a point where more power just creates heat; more power doesn't get louder. 2: Thermal limit, when you pump the max watts and reach the cab power rating. Any more burns out the speakers. 3: Physical limits, when the cones fart out. Too much of this and the cones tear up.

These factors are all dependent on cab design, which varies considerably. Most players look at #2 and figure "higher rating, it can go louder." Not necessarily. Most cabs fart out and that's all they can go.

And if your ears are overloaded by guitars, you'll just go deaf before you hear the bass well.

 

[Spiffing]

First off, thanks to everyone for the helpful responses. I see now that I was totally off-base in approaching the issue as a power/volume related one. After playing some more and reevaluating the problem (and playing with the EQ) I am actually cutting through quite well with the higher notes. Turning down the bass on the guitars helped the lower notes cut through as well, but they're still running into tone issues (the amp clips on the lowest notes, though not on any higher ones).

On one hand, it seems like the 410HLF is known for it's ability to push the lowest notes, so in that sense a new cab seems like it may fix the problem by giving more definition to those notes. On the other hand, some of you have said that clipping is almost exclusively a head-related issue. So, having cleared away that false start about power and wattage and volume, I guess I can rephrase the question as 'would a new cabinet improve tone and prevent clipping in the lower ranges, or would my head probably clip on those lowest notes regardless of cabinet'? [maybe there's some cone-farting going on in my current cabinet? ]

 

[Selta]

I'm gald we could help clear this up somewhat.
Clipping, is entirely an issue with your head not being able to produce the power you are trying to get from it. That's all. A different cab is not going to help this, unless it's absurdly more efficient, to the point where you can turn down the volume knobs.
I would still strongly consider re-revisiting your EQing. If you're throwing out those thunderous lows and really do need that for your band setting, without signifigant PA support, realize a couple of things:
You going to need a pretty serious setup in the amp department. I would highly suggest at looking at a pre/power setup
You're also going to need a few cabs to throw that out to the audience. I would start by at least doubling your current cabs (you run one 4x10, I would look at another, at least). You do not "have" to look at bigger speakers. If 10s get your tone, keep using them, just use more of them.
You also will need some pretty good hearing protection. Those ultra low notes can be just as harmful as the highs at high volume levels.

Among other things, but there's where to start. It'd be cheaper, easier and better for you if you could figure out an EQ that might be a compromise in your bedroom, but that you won't even notice on stage at the club.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I see now that I was totally off-base in approaching the issue as a power/volume related one.

That's where the learning part makes all the difference. This is good.

...reevaluating the problem (and playing with the EQ) I am actually cutting through quite well with the higher notes. Turning down the bass on the guitars helped the lower notes cut through as well, but they're still running into tone issues...

Now you're making good progress. What you're doing as a band is the same thing a studio engineer does to create a good mix.

It's easy to think that mixing a recording is all about moving faders to adjust level, but good mixing is all about carving out spots in the frequency spectrum to make room for everyone. The engineer cuts the bass on the guitars; he adjusts kick drum and bass tone to complement each other, not conflict.

Multiple rhythm guitar parts are usually arranged so they're not playing the same thing. If they must, their tones are adjusted to avoid conflicting sounds.

What of the vocal? Is it buried under the rhythm guitar? On a record, the vocal can't simply be cranked up to blast over everything; it needs its own sonic space. Same goes for a live band.

Coming up with a good overall sound won't happen in one session. Have a trusted listener give commentary on the band mix. Record with anything handy and listen critically---and honestly. Then make small changes and listen for the improvement.

Recording with the simplest system is best. A simple stereo recording will show everything. A fancy multitrack recording is less useful, because that lulls you into thinking you can "fix it in the mix." You need to hear how the band sounds live.

When a band is performing, the mix happens in real-time, with no chance to go back and remix. There's very little a FOH mixer can do with the PA if the band doesn't have their mix figured out. If stage volume is high, the PA can't turn that down. But if the band has a clean, coherent mix, the FOH guy just adds a little here and there. He won't try to "create" a mix, because the band is already there.

You establish your band mix before the show: you've made good arrangements, adjusted tone, tweaked volume, and rehearsed. When you play the show, it all pays off.