I have taken several beginner lessons and note I have a few problems that may not be surmountable physically for me and thus perhaps the Upright is not appropriate for me. I have an unstable thumb commonly known as a Z thumb, that is, hyper-extension of the inter-phalangeal joint of the thumb which makes powerful squeezing difficult. I do notice that Rabbath does have this as well and certainly he is a world class player, but still my thumb has this difficult anatomy which makes guitar playing a bit difficult as well, but I do manage nicely. I also note that pressing down on the strings is quite uncomfortable to my finger tips. I am a long time guitar player and electric bass guitar player and can handle the pressure of fretting with callus build up with relative comfort. But I have very thin bony and delicate fingers with very little flesh (I am very slender and light framed) so the huge strings of the upright tend to be very uncomfortable if I try to use finger tip pressure and I doubt callus formation will be a solution. This seems to be more of a flesh padding situation. If I use the pads of my fingers, then the tone is not very good. I am beginning to suspect that the upright bass is too physical an instrument for me. Can you comment on whether some players for physical reasons just cannot conquer or become comfortable on upright? I do adore the tone of the upright and have borrowed one from a friend, but I am beginning to think that for my delicate body construction, that playing it will be quite a struggle and uncomfortable long term. AI tells me that this is a common impediment to playing this instrument. This combined with the expense and massive size of the instrument is beginning to make me think that playing it may not be appropriate for me. I am most interested in your feedback about finger tip padding and pressure problems (not calluses which I already have) and unstable Z thumb configuration of my hand. Thanks for you thoughts.
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Double Bass Need reality check on starting Double Bass due to Physical Problems
- Thread starter Photonic
- Start date
"Squeezing" the strings to the fingerboard is something you DON'T want to do, so you may actually have an advantage there in engraining proper technique.
As far as general delicacy of body construction, I've known of some fairly delicate women to become outstanding double bassists. So while it might be an obstacle, it might be an obstacle that could be overcome with judicious persistence.
I would try to find a teacher who understands and can help you address your specific issues to the instrument.
As far as general delicacy of body construction, I've known of some fairly delicate women to become outstanding double bassists. So while it might be an obstacle, it might be an obstacle that could be overcome with judicious persistence.
I would try to find a teacher who understands and can help you address your specific issues to the instrument.
Before you give up on the instrument totally, try to find a smaller bass(5/8ths size) and have it strung with the lightest strings and best setup possible. Also, find someone( experienced teacher or player) who can evaluate your chances of success. I've had students who've overcome various physical roadblocks with time and determination. I can't stress too much the need for a proper instrument and knowledgeable instruction. Don't be intimidated by the size of the bass or anything else about it until you have more "hands on" ( literally) experience. I wish you every success.
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My career was as a military bandsman. So it's possible my observations on setup and playing philosophy are a bit out of the mainstream.
Comments:
Comments:
- Too some degree it's pretty much impossible to judge the efficacy of continuing, without actually continuing.
- A beginner does not have either the skill or knowledge to judge the problems they are having.
- So you can stop now, or you can continue until such point as it becomes unbearable. You may be fine as long as you don't overdo it--Probably no need to rush, but some restraint may be required.
- A beginner does not have either the skill or knowledge to judge the problems they are having.
- It's not effective to pinch the neck and strings between the thumb and fingers. A priority should be to learn to use and maintain properly arched fingers to transfer the required force from arm weight and engagement of larger muscles.
- You should actually be able to play without using the thumb to apply any force to the neck. The thumb should be more to add a bit of stability to the hand, rather than applying a massive amount of force.
- Another goal is to apply optimum force with the finger tips, rather than max force. This is something that takes time to really grasp, and it's something that you tend to work on indefinitely.
- If I understand, we have subcutaneous fat in our hands and fingers that provide a bit of cushion. This tissue degenerates as we age, which results in increased sensitivity to repetitive force injuries at the finger tips. I started noticing increased sensitivity to repetitive injury in my late 40s.
- Upright bass setup can vary quite a bit.
- IME it's common for uprights to have a lot more string height at the nut than I like. My guess is this gives the player a bit more dynamic range, but it also makes the force required to press the string down in lower positions ramp up fairly quickly. I have filed the slots on many bass guitars and uprights to suit my technique. With string height at the nut reduced, I find the strength required to play in lower positions is greatly reduced. Also my perception is it's possible to makes the tension across strings near the nut seem more even.
- The height the bridge crown is set at is also a factor. Higher will give more dynamic range and a punchier sound, but it also requires more force to press the strings to the fingerboard and allows more plucking/bowing force.
- I would say choosing nut and bridge height involve evaluating trade-offs and choosing the compromise that best suits your needs. The vast majority of my performing was through an amp, so I did not need the absolute maximum acoustic volume the bass could produce. So I tended to use relatively low action on my uprights.
- IME there seems to be some variation in philosophy that varies across professional orchestras or possibly across geographic regions. I grew up in South Texas and all of the upright players I knew seemed to play with a high nut and high action. The philosophy seemed to be aggressively attack the bass for max volume and projection. The last person I took lessons from was the principle in Sacramento. His basses played extremely easily and his philosophy seemed to emphasize playing efficiency and applying just enough force to get good tone. My impression is he relied more on instrument quality for volume than aggression. If I remember correctly his instruments were all 7/8 size with about 42" mensure.
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From the tone of your post and how you frame your question (asking for comments on whether some players cannot overcome physical limitations to become comfortable on upright bass), it seems to me that you’re leaning strongly in the direction of not being able to play upright bass. If this is true, then I think your chances of success will be small. If you could change your mindset to, “Can you all provide some strategies for overcoming these issues?” I think you’d have a much greater chance of success. You’ll notice that all the comments posted so far have been in this direction.
Just sayin’…
Just sayin’…
Well I appreciated your comment which made me think about my request. I was looking for experience or thoughts about whether it was common or not for some players to find anatomical reasons for not being successful at continuing with the instrument. I was very aware that teaching and lessons could help evaluate and possibly relieve perceived problems. I was asking this because from some other resources it was stated to me that it is very common. So I was looking for corroboration of those comments simply out of curiosity as to whether this was indeed common.
So on further thought, posting this request to this sub section of the forum may have been not fruitful because it is populated and followed presumably by successful players and thus I would not hear from electric bass players who had decided to not continue with upright bass due to these physical concerns.
So I still would be interested to know if the idea that many players stop due to the physical demands is common or not, but also realize that I might not get any answers here. Thanks.
depends on how bad you want it. i'd say just about all beginner double bassists have trouble learning to play comfortably. also lots start on a poorly setup instrument that is harder to play than it needs to be. if you really want to play it i wouldn't give up so easily, and definitely wouldn't look to AI trash to make the decision for you.
I have a bad back and janky wrist from surgery, but i still make it work.
I have a bad back and janky wrist from surgery, but i still make it work.
The only way to get the answer you want is to continue on your journey to learn upright. Either you will endure or you will give up.
Lot's of players eventually find that the pain of playing is too much and quit. Before getting to that point, they may adjust the set up of their instrument and also modify or fine tune their playing technique.
As a youngster learning to play, I endured considerable pain in the process of building the required muscles and technique. This is part of the journey, regardless of age.
Photonic, I believe from this last post that the fact that you're looking at this from an EB standpoint is part of the issue. The DB is a different instrument. I've had students over the years, often adults, who get frustrated initially because they think the DB is just a big EB. They're tuned the same, and can perform similarly in some types of music, but the technique and approach, to simplify somewhat, are totally different. You need to understand this to be successful IMO. If you look at the learning process for DB as a struggle and painful experience it will be. There is no reason for this to be the case with good instruction and a well set up instrument. It's not the EB, it's a DB, and you must approach it differently or it won't work.
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I lifted weights last Sunday and then rode my mountain bikes on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. Over the last week or so, intense physical activity has been making me feel more beat up than usual, so I took yesterday (Thursday) off. Now it's Friday and my legs feel a bit sore and weak, and I still feel a bit beat up. I plan to lift weights for about two hours this evening. I had planned to do it earlier, but did not get out of the house in time. It's going to be an unpleasant work out. With any luck I will feel well enough to do about a 2-hour motorcycle ride tomorrow and then go for a mountain bike ride the next day.
I am still motivated to do these things, but doing so involves tolerating and managing physical discomfort.
I am still motivated to do these things, but doing so involves tolerating and managing physical discomfort.
Well I loved your story! So here's the deal for me. I am a life long guitar player and a recent electric bass player and am 70 years old with a somewhat limited life expectancy due to some medical conditions. I adore the tonal qualities of the upright, but because of my physical attributes I am finding it a challenge. I know this is common. So what I am really cogitating is whether I really want to tackle the learning curve of this fascinating instrument or whether it is a distraction from my main musical pursuits with what time I have left. I know there is no right answer, but I am trying to get in touch with all aspects that might help in my choice of how to proceed. Clearly an intense personal choice and no one can make it for me. But right now I am in the process of not only learning on the upright itself that a friend has loaned me, but also discussing the realities of the instrument with those who have been around both successful and unsuccessful players for a long time, just like the members of this forum which is so great. I am appreciating everyone's input.
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I go mountain biking or run up mountains. Then I do it again the next day. And again. Sometime I'm sore, sometimes not, but rarely do I ever let that stop me for more than a day! I'm certainly not going to quit those activities due to a little soreness.
Photonic, I'm ahead of you be several years and have been playing DB professionally since I was a teenager. From that perspective I feel that the main issue for you for learning DB is not physical but mental. Since I've been a player longer than a teacher I have the experience of an older person from both perspectives. My experience with adult learners in general is that it's simply more difficult to learn new skills, especially musical ones. It's not impossible by any means, but takes more patience and time. Physical limitations can be a factor but don't have to mean you can't do it. What you need is somebody like me, an old player who can deal with your issues on an informed and personal level. Don't give up.
Here's what I think on an existential level: at your age and health you are not learning double bass to get more gigs or join your local community orchestra, but for some spiritual (if that's not too strong a word) and psychological insight and comfort. You don't have to practice the bass 3 hours a day. Ten minutes here and there on a scale, or a passage from George Vance's method (Progressive Repertoire for the Double Bass), or the new Italian method (New Didactic Approach To The Double Bass String Method Double Bass), and some easy Bach (Bach for the Young Bass Player).... and then STOP.
Put the bass down (on a chair so you don't have to bend over), go on with your day and then come back. Repeat. Good for the soul and not bad for the back.
Put the bass down (on a chair so you don't have to bend over), go on with your day and then come back. Repeat. Good for the soul and not bad for the back.
Indeed. Being now 70 and with health challenges, however, my perspective (read that as abilities) have changed. Time marches on and changes occur - of course different for all of us.
Well wasn't THAT lovely. A very interesting perspective. Yes I have noticed that just playing the open strings is stirring experience. After listening to some videos I can see that arco of a few notes is fabulous as well. Yes, I have no illusions of becoming proficient, just a wonderful hobby of experiencing the instrument along with my other guitar and electric bass projects. Now that was a very nice and refreshing perspective and not achievement oriented. A different approach from how most of my life has gone with very high achievement and goal orientation in all endeavors. You mean just enjoy it for what is possible? How radical!!
There are lots of reasons people stop playing double bass.
Speaking as someone with a number of health related reasons to stop, I don't stop because despite everything, the instrument still inpires me to work with it and make progress with it.
Yes, some of that is stubborn commitment. And some of that is having discovered ways to work around my particular health issues.
But most of it is outside of myself, being inspired by the instrument, and realizing even just a little bit of what the instrument can do and how much fun it is to peel that onion.
Speaking as someone with a number of health related reasons to stop, I don't stop because despite everything, the instrument still inpires me to work with it and make progress with it.
Yes, some of that is stubborn commitment. And some of that is having discovered ways to work around my particular health issues.
But most of it is outside of myself, being inspired by the instrument, and realizing even just a little bit of what the instrument can do and how much fun it is to peel that onion.
