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Nestle's EPIC Fail on Facebook

^^ +over 9000

That Sea Shepherd one was not that long ago either, completely rediculious. Even if they were deliberatly rammed (which I don't believe they were), they brought it on them selves in my opinion, the ships were in antarctica, they shouldn't even be within a hundred miles of each other.

I'm not advocating whaleing, but running around in boats and irritating the culprits is no way to go about it. There was another situation recently where they boarded a vessle and confronted the captain, god knows why, trying to convince him to turn around or something stupid?

I just don't understand what motivates these people, they should be looking to make amendments to international laws rather than breaking them...

-Edit-

I hadn't even looked at that first one where they rammed the yacht, words cannot describe, the yacht was only sponsered by someone related to nuclear power, its a sailing vessel!?
 
What i dont understand is why are they mad about the palm oil? do they not know that most palm oil comes from palm farms? just like the corn used in their e85 powered vehicles or the soy in their tofu. you know, bugs live on those plants and when we kill the plant to make food, they die too. I highly doubt there are orangutans in palm plantations.


EDIT: just checked the facts... Nestle is to blame for one of their supplier's stupidity? yup... that makes sense. and greenpeace is also responsible for polluting the environment with the coal that is burnt to charge their electric cars and processing their organic food
 
What i dont understand is why are they mad about the palm oil? do they not know that most palm oil comes from palm farms? ...I highly doubt there are orangutans in palm plantations.
In this case, there are, and that's exactly what they are mad about. Are there orangutans in other palm farms? Probably not. But there are in the one that's being highlighted in this instance, and the "farming" being done is just clearcutting, not responsible crop-raising.
just checked the facts... Nestle is to blame for one of their supplier's stupidity? yup... that makes sense.
This part, I agree with you. I really don't think Nestle is "the bad guy" in this instance, at least not anywhere near the degree that GP is trying to make them.
and greenpeace is also responsible for polluting the environment with the coal that is burnt to charge their electric cars and processing their organic food
No more so than you or anyone else. Should they get off the high horse? Yes. Are they "responsible" in some way more than you? No.
 
I've been avoiding Nestle products for a while now. Mainly because they suck. Hershey's and Nestle's have about the blandest tasting chocolate. Looking at the Nestle Wiki list of brands,...I think I may have a bag of outdated Toll House chocolate chips (I use Guittard [hehe] semi-sweet for my C.C.Cookies). And I have a bag of Purina for my dog (didn't know it was a Nestle brand)

FWIW Deforestation aside,...palm oil is one of the highest saturated fats and probably least healthy vegetable oil you can use. The main reason these giant companies use it is because it is cheap. Profit centered business practices strike again.

As far as the whole Green Peace, Peta, thing goes,....I fancy myself as relatively bleeding heart/liberal but all to often these groups cross the line. I tend to look at anything that GP or Peta has their stamp on with a skeptical eye.
 
Give me a break.

I didn't want to get into this with you guys, because I can tell your opinions are pretty much the opposite of mine. So why bother? Just for the sake of arguing? Like I said No thanks.
I'm not sure if you think this is taking the high road, but when one actually takes the high road, they don't have to tell anyone because they never entered the fray to start with. If you don't want the conversation (or to "get into this"), don't drop a not-so-subtle hint that you disapprove of others.
Edit: I'm a vegan, a financial supporter of Amnesty International, Greenpeace and wait for it.... PETA. So yeah, I'm one of those leftist, socialist, environmentalist, liberals that you guys love to hate. I used to even be nicknamed "Rainbow McDolphin" at my old blue collar job... I hope you get a kick out of that one.
If anything, I think the predominant feeling in this thread (with respect to GP) has been not that this is a bad cause, just that there are perhaps better groups to support. And, yes, Rainbow McDolphin is funny, but I generally prefer nicknames that are one step removed from their impetus.

And here's a tidbit for you...

Nestle used to have a program in Africa (not sure if they still run this program) for new mothers where they would give free baby formula supposedly as a charitable thing. After a few months when the mother's breast milk had dried up, Nestle would start charging for the baby formula. That is so underhanded and sleazy. And thats why I am not fan of Nestle and have boycotted them years ago.

Flame on

*unsubscribed*
I don't consider asking someone to explain a statement about others "flaming". Maybe that's the disconnect.

Moving along and taking Turner's correction of your Nestle facts into consideration, I strongly support the boycotting of brands/products/stores I have an issue with, but I'd think you'd want to stay current on those issues rather than admitting you're not sure if the alleged program is still in effect. The formula marketing deal that spwned the boycott supposedly was a 1970's/1980's thing.

Mike
 
You're too large a man, Greg, to let some tiny, under-nourished vegan take you down.
This is true. They could be crafty and trip me from down below, though.
You're lucky. Damn lucky. Not a week goes by that I don't hear of a Chicago-area resident getting rammed by Greenpeace while on their lunch break.

Mike
It might be happening daily or hourly, we simply don't know. Al Capone, as you may have heard, was only convicted of tax evasion.
 
First of all, ramming another boat is ramming another boat, period, it doesn't matter why you're doing it or for what reason, especially if it's intentional, like both of these occurrences were.
..in your opinion, based on a written account and a choppy, edited video.
Regarding the big ship: You do realize how much momentum a ship moving at any speed has right? Ships of that size moving at even slower speeds than that can cause significant damage. Also, if you look at the wake at the front of the bow of the green peace boat, it seems for all the world like me like it was intentionally turning into the Japanese ship.
I'm not, by any means, simply accepting Greenpeace's claims of innocence in these cases. But they are at least plausible, IMO. In the second case, Greenpeace claimed the Japanese ship executed a huge turn to facilitate the collision--it's hard to tell one way or the other from that clip. There's plenty of room for doubt in both cases.
Lastly, I never said they killed some one, I said it wasn't out of the question that some one had died as a result of one of their stunts. I don't think greenpeace lines people up and shoots them, but I do think they put other people's lives in danger with some of the **** they pull, and it wouldn't surprise me if it's happened before where some one died as a result. There's an old saying out there that goes: "The absence of evidence is not the evident of absence."
That's not what the person you quoted was saying. And Greenpeace's activities are of course intended to get attention and do. Furthemore, their actions are closely examined by those opposed to them and the corporations they provoke. Given these conditions, the absence of evidence that anyone has died as a result of Greenpeace's activities (despite that saying) is pretty telling.
 
Yeah let's talk about that second incident. This is actually the second time I'm seen footage of dangerous piloting on the part of greenpeace. In fact, this incident is worse than the first one I saw. Personally these guys that are piloting should at least lose their captains licenses, and I say they should be brought up on charges of attempted murder. It is no easy task to get a captains license, and these actions go against the spirit of operating a vessel. While that greenpeace vessel might look small, I can assure you that it is not. Additionally, when you are dealing with vessels of these sizes, any collision at any speed can be potentially deadly. When you factor in the location of these vessels and the response time (not to mention the cost and the risk of life for the rescue crew) these actions are very very dangerous, and could easily be construed as attempted murder. We've all seen episodes of Deadliest Catch and are aware of the survival rate of a person that falls into those waters, well I can assure you that these waters are deeper and colder. When you factor in the response time for a rescue, the chance of surviving an prolonged immersion is pretty much slim to none.

The first collision I saw was between a Japanese whaling vessel and a vessel of the sea shepherds. They placed themselves directly in the path of a huge vessel underway. The captain of the sea shepherd's vessel was at the helm of the vessel that broke the Atlantic crossing speed record (a beautiful boat IMO). When you put your vessel in front of a vessel that size, that huge whaling ship has no way of changing course to evade collision. In the video of this video (taken from the helm of the Japanese vessel) you can actually hear the ship slam it's engines into full reverse and you can see the ship start to change it's direction in a manner consistent with someone cranking thr wheel at the helm but there was no way they could avoid collision with the sea shepherds vessel. The sea shepherds vessel (a tri-hull) suffered considerable damage to the port side hull. The captain even deliberately manuveured his boat so it the collision would not be a t-bone (which would have surely resulted in the boat and it's personnel getting sucked under the hull of the whaling ship. That would have been certain death in those waters, because even if the whaling vessel was able to circle back and rescue them, a ship that size could not have done it fast enough to retrieve the bodies out of those frigid waters. What really chaps my hide is the sea shepherd captain (after him and his crew were rescued (again let's not even consider the risk of the rescuers' lives and the cost of such a mission) had the nerve to try to accuse the Japanese captain of attempted murder. In fact, he should have been charged with attempted murder.

The incident linked above (the second link) is even worse. Even at those slow speeds a collision like that (a t-bone on the starboard side) could have easily ripped open the hull of the fishing vessel, and compromised it to the point of sinking. In the worst case scenario both vessels could have sunk. Then what? Death and murder on the high seas? Sorry, but while I'm definitely against whaling, and over fishing of our oceans, the life of people takes precedent. If I had witnessed this from my rescue vessel and we had to rescue these idiots I would have definitely testified against them. These Greenpeace captains should lose their licenses and strung up on charges. F them.

Now before any of you guys start talking about whales and overfishing, I'm a strong advocate against these things. I don't care what country is doing it, they should stop. Still, when greenpeace and sea shepherds behave like this I think they are doing more damage to their cause than good.
I haven't see the sea shepherds video. Daren, I recognize that you have a hell of a lot more expertise in these matters than me. But this video, as I said above, is choppy and edited. No question, the Greenpeace ship being there in the first place is a big problem. But isn't it possible that, as Greenpeace claims, the Japanese ship made a big turn to make this collision inevitable? Seems hard to tell from the vantagepoint of the video who's at fault.

I figured you were opposed to whaling in the first place. And I certainly don't agree with everything Greenpeace does; I think they have hurt their cause at times. But I think they're being demonized in this thread.
 
No more so than you or anyone else. Should they get off the high horse? Yes. Are they "responsible" in some way more than you? No.

I know... I'm probably directly responsible for more pollution than them individually because I dont have cats on either of my cars.

but then again I dont take a boat around at full speed trying to catch up with other boats to yell at them for harming the environment.
 
Carbon emissions and whaling are two seperate issues and should not be confused.
Obviously (and I'm not sure he was confused about anything, really), but surely you can understand how the running of an internal combustion engine at full bore would run contrary to this statement on their homepage:

Greenpeace is a global campaigning organisation that acts to change attitudes and behaviour, to protect and conserve the environment and to promote peace by:

Catalysing an energy revolution to address the number one threat facing our planet: climate change.

Defending our oceans by challenging wasteful and destructive fishing, and creating a global network of marine reserves.

Protecting the world’s remaining ancient forests and the animal, plants and people that depend on them.

Working for disarmament and peace by reducing dependence on finite resources and calling for the elimination of all nuclear weapons.

Creating a toxic free future with safer alternatives to hazardous chemicals in today's products and manufacturing.

Supporting sustainable agriculture by encouraging socially and ecologically responsible farming practices.
I guess one could justify one to accompish another, but that could be rephrased as "robbing Peter to pay Paul".

Mike
 
I haven't see the sea shepherds video. Daren, I recognize that you have a hell of a lot more expertise in these matters than me. But this video, as I said above, is choppy and edited. No question, the Greenpeace ship being there in the first place is a big problem. But isn't it possible that, as Greenpeace claims, the Japanese ship made a big turn to make this collision inevitable? Seems hard to tell from the vantagepoint of the video who's at fault.

I figured you were opposed to whaling in the first place. And I certainly don't agree with everything Greenpeace does; I think they have hurt their cause at times. But I think they're being demonized in this thread.

There's enough evidence in this video, despite the obvious edits. The Greenpeace ship is controlling the collision. You can tell because they're trying to trim their speed with reverse pulses in their engines. The captain wants a collision, but is trying to control the speed at which occurs. Even the speed that he allows is wreckless. I've responsed to slow impact collisions that have resulted in millions of dollars in damage and sunken ships. All within the safe haven of a harbor. The amount of danger this creates in these cold waters, hundreds of miles and hours from a rescue response (if people go in the water or a ship starts sinking), is so negligent that we're entering into the territory of murderous.

Let's explore the claims made by Greenpeace. First let's look at motive. Out of the two ships there, who would want to avoid a collision the most, a ship that is operating to make a profit and is holding precious cargo (the source of said profit), or a ship that is out to interfere with a ship from making its profit? If the Japanese ship wanted to create a collision, it has A LOT more to lose in a worse case scenario than the Greenpeace ship.

Second, a vessel pretty much steers stern first (kind of like a forklift). The larger the vessel, slower it is to respond. Slow ops and slow speed turns are actually achieved by alternating the reverse/forward thrusts on the port and starboard engines. It's kind of like driving a tank. No rudder involvement at all. Because the vessel is so slow turning (in comparison to the Greenpeace vessel) a Captain, in order to avoid collision would probably throw the engines into neutral, then hit full reverse on the starboard (perhaps full throttle forward on the port engine too), and the Captain would probably crank the wheel TOWARD the vessel. This would change the trajectory of the bow toward the vessel, but would actually move the stern of the ship (and the starboard flank) away from the incoming vessel, so the hull of the Japanese boat, and the bow of the Greenpeace boat are moving the same direction which would lessen the blow of a collision if it was unavoidable.

Now to the lay person's eyes (who is more used to driving a car) this would indeed look like the Japanese boat is turning into a collision (and the Greenpeace captain - also a boat operator - would know what the other captain was doing) and they spin these videos this way on purpose, so they can demonize the whaling/fishing boats as these ruthless captains running over peaceful protestors. It's quite an effective fund raiser.

To become a Captain, and to get into a position where you are operating vessels of this size (that Greenpeace boat is not a small vessel either BTW), it takes years of coursework, and years of time behind the wheel operating boats. There's a lot on the line for these guys. If one of these guys is tried and convicted of attempted murder on the high seas, or even if they lose their Captain's license, it's the equivalent of a lawyer being disbarred. It's a big deal. Also every single person aboard is the responsibility of the Captain. To operate a vessel in this manner is jeopardizing their safety as well.

On a philosophical level, I used to support Greenpeace. I've even donated in the past. I really think that our oceans need to be fished smarter, but when I see them behaving this recklessly and going out of their way to create these highly dangerous situations where people could die, I can't sit back and support this. Bottom line, I value human life more than animal life. This is why I don't support Greenpeace anymore.
 
Interestingly, I'm betting the guys on the whaling ship might make a similar argument (using one resource for the perceived benefit of the group).

Ehhh... That's a stretch, and the only arguments I have ever seen for whaling are "it's traditional" and "the market demands, we supply". Neither of those requires further, more subtle explanation or interpretation. Additionally, there is no "whale planting" program by humans in the ocean, and there is no danger from whale overpopulation to any part of the ecosystem, so there's no logical point at which any whaler would say they are benefiting the greater good. Maybe in the case of a couple Inuits in a kayak bringing a whale back to their subsistence-feeding village, but that's an entirely different thing from a large-scale industry of whaling ships for comparatively wealthy Japan.
 
Obviously (and I'm not sure he was confused about anything, really), but surely you can understand how the running of an internal combustion engine at full bore would run contrary to this statement on their homepage:

I guess one could justify one to accompish another, but that could be rephrased as "robbing Peter to pay Paul".

Mike

I know we're just arguing semantics here, but the Sea Shepherds aren't part of Greenpeace. Either way, if you follow that logic then no eco friendly organisation would use any sort of transport, manufactured product or even mains electricity to accomplish their goals. Heck, they wouldn't even be able to eat anything they hadn't grown themselves. That the perceived greater good outweighs the necessary sacrifices made to achieve it is a near universal sentiment, surely? It's not a valid criticism to level at anyone given that it's basic human nature.

Ehhh... That's a stretch, and the only arguments I have ever seen for whaling are "it's traditional" and "the market demands, we supply". Neither of those requires further, more subtle explanation or interpretation. Additionally, there is no "whale planting" program by humans in the ocean, and there is no danger from whale overpopulation to any part of the ecosystem, so there's no logical point at which any whaler would say they are benefiting the greater good. Maybe in the case of a couple Inuits in a kayak bringing a whale back to their subsistence-feeding village, but that's an entirely different thing from a large-scale industry of whaling ships for comparatively wealthy Japan.

I like how it gets dressed up as "research." Surely the only thing they can be researching is how many whales they can kill in a month?
 
I know we're just arguing semantics here, but the Sea Shepherds aren't part of Greenpeace.
Point taken.
Either way, if you follow that logic then no eco friendly organisation would use any sort of transport, manufactured product or even mains electricity to accomplish their goals. Heck, they wouldn't even be able to eat anything they hadn't grown themselves.
Well, don't you find it hard to follow the lead when the impression is "do as I say, not as I do"? I know it's difficult a t times, but I generally tend to put more stock in people who immerse themselves in a cause. How many times have you heard the example of "pro-life" people supporting the death penalty or worse? It's comical because the actions run exactly contrary to the purpose. Sure, one could argue a "greater good" is being served but....
That the perceived greater good outweighs the necessary sacrifices made to achieve it is a near universal sentiment, surely?
Surely? Not exactly. There is no universally accepted definition of "greater", "good" or the combination thereof. See my (admittedly extreme) example above. I agree, though, it's nice to say.

Mike
 
Ehhh... That's a stretch, and the only arguments I have ever seen for whaling are "it's traditional" and "the market demands, we supply". Neither of those requires further, more subtle explanation or interpretation. Additionally, there is no "whale planting" program by humans in the ocean, and there is no danger from whale overpopulation to any part of the ecosystem, so there's no logical point at which any whaler would say they are benefiting the greater good. Maybe in the case of a couple Inuits in a kayak bringing a whale back to their subsistence-feeding village, but that's an entirely different thing from a large-scale industry of whaling ships for comparatively wealthy Japan.
You're looking at this with one definition of greater good in mind. As I hinted above (and I'm not asying I agree with this stance) but it could be argued that the money generated from the sale of whale products and the resulting ability to support one's family, not to mention the impact on the economy of the cost of operating such a large ship and the ripple effect on the tangent industries (ports, supplies, etc), constitues a "greater good".

Mike
 

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