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New, and confused about size vs. tone
- Thread starter ColoradoRex
- Start date
I use tens. 2-10s for most gigs, 2-210 cabs for concerts. Most speaker cabs made today are full range cabs, no need to get geeked over speaker size. Just find one that you like how it sounds. Just keep in mind, you may need to move it.
Cab efficiency ratings and tonal range can vary all over the map. I would start there first in a search for a rig. Next, wattage rating and how much resistance it has (ohms).
Do you really think that all light weight cars move quicker than heavier ones?
Light weight people jump quicker at 100 Meter distance than tall athletics such as Jussim Bolt?
Actually a light weight paper cone can produce partial cone resonance at higher frequency and therefore noticeable more of midrange content than a stiffer and heavier glass fiber reinforced cone that was explicit designed for low bass application
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Smooth_bass88
vaxx!
- Oct 31, 2006
- 12,122
- 16,796
- Disclosures
- have been on nationally released albums, charting on the Billboard 200
You can’t compare cars and people to electric bass speaker cabinet design and technology.
My comment is based on 32+ years of working as a bass player, that’s all.
Hi ColoradoRex,
I grew up in and around Denver, and know Colorado Springs well. Great town. Back in the day (1980's) I often used cabinets with 15" and even 18" speakers. What I learned was that when using large speakers I might not hear myself well on stage (if the guitarists and drummer were loud) but the people out in the audience were getting blasted by my volume and the soundman was running up telling me to turn down. It was explained to me using the term "throw"--the sound pressure level at a given distance from the source (speaker): larger speakers have a longer "throw." I'm no physicist and don't know if that terminology is accurate. But if I used 10" or 12" speakers I could hear myself great onstage without blasting the audience and soundman (which enabled the soundman to control the level of bass guitar in the PA system). So everyone was happier. This doesn't really relate to tone, but it is another factor worth considering.
I grew up in and around Denver, and know Colorado Springs well. Great town. Back in the day (1980's) I often used cabinets with 15" and even 18" speakers. What I learned was that when using large speakers I might not hear myself well on stage (if the guitarists and drummer were loud) but the people out in the audience were getting blasted by my volume and the soundman was running up telling me to turn down. It was explained to me using the term "throw"--the sound pressure level at a given distance from the source (speaker): larger speakers have a longer "throw." I'm no physicist and don't know if that terminology is accurate. But if I used 10" or 12" speakers I could hear myself great onstage without blasting the audience and soundman (which enabled the soundman to control the level of bass guitar in the PA system). So everyone was happier. This doesn't really relate to tone, but it is another factor worth considering.
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Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Don't even cars and people accelerate mass once they do a sprint ?
[/QUOTE]
And I try to discuss based on 45+ years of experience as bass player and 35+ years of experience as an electronic and audio engineer.
Personally I can hear if there is plenty of midrange present to a woofer or if the midrange is dimmed.
But I don't hear if the cone movement gradually goes down at 1.5kHz or allready at 1kHz and partial cone resonance increasingly takes place to introduce SPL rather than cone movement at the (upper) midrange
Maybe you can elaborate what do you really mean with "quicker"?
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Part of being new to the game is establishing your preferences. It can be elusive. Just be honest with yourself about whatever it is you hear. It’s easy to be swayed by hearsay. At the end of the game, you want to wind up with your ideal balance of tone, convenience (heft), and cost. And whatever you buy, it is most helpful if it fits easily in your vehicle.
Markbass has been making 8" speakers for years and those things BOOM. I recently added a little practice amp with a 4" speaker and a "Bass Guitar" setting that also sounds pretty freaking fantastic at lower volumes.
This is great advice. It's all about what you like - and it's definitely a process. Your preferences will change and your ideas will be challenged. You'll nail down a great sound and then take it to band practice and BAM it's not a good sound anymore. Or you'll sound great in practice and then you take it to a venue and BAM it changes again. You may make mistakes with your gear purchases. That's part of the game, I think.
A good idea would be to call this thread "good", and start a new thread asking for some amp recommendations. Outline the instrument you have, the gear you've used, and where you think you'll be using it. Then take those suggestions in mind while you go try some amps out if possible.
Smooth_bass88
vaxx!
- Oct 31, 2006
- 12,122
- 16,796
- Disclosures
- have been on nationally released albums, charting on the Billboard 200
And I try to discuss based on 45+ years of experience as bass player and 35+ years of experience as an electronic and audio engineer.
Personally I can hear if there is plenty of midrange present to a woofer or if the midrange is dimmed.
But I don't hear if the cone movement gradually goes down at 1.5kHz or allready at 1kHz and partial cone resonance increasingly takes place to introduce SPL rather than cone movement at the (upper) midrange
Maybe you can elaborate what do you really mean with "quicker"?[/QUOTE]
In my experience, I've found that 10" speakers seem to have a good transient response- it's perceived as more responsive, or "quicker". Not like literally faster. I feel that I can hear myself better with 10s compared to 15s or 18s. I've tried many many configurations over the years and 10s work best for me.
My favorite cab is my little late 90s Ampeg 2x10 PRO. I also own (all Ampeg) a 4x10 HLF, a 4x10 HNE and and two 1x15s. A lot of the gigs I do have backline provided and I always request an SVT w/810.
Well, they do ride better and they don't. Depends on what you're aiming for. You can never achieve the same response and attack with a 15'' speaker compared to a, let's say, 10''. It's basic physics. OTOH, you can get a more "saggy" sound with a 15'' which is especially very nice if you play with picks. Pick your poison, but never say that size doesn't matter. It does.
It sounds like you're missing about four decades.
(Just FYI, the cabs I use have 5" speakers in them.)
Wow...I've played through all kinds and sizes of speakers since I started with my first amp in 1966. In the 60's and mostly through the 70's, speaker size was a determining factor in getting the "biggest" bass sound. 212's were pretty standard, with the best amps using 215 cabs. I had a 1966 Fender Bassman that was a 50-watt all-tube amp with 212's. I toured with a nightclub group playing 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year for 3 years and my gear really got a workout. After the guitarist and keys upgraded their amps to the 125-watt Vox Super Beatle amps just a few months after I joined them, I got buried and started blowing speakers trying to keep up.
Then I upgraded to a Standel piggy-back amp (MCIIb/SAM30b) with a 215 ported, reflex channeled, and powered cab. That amp was a monster and I never had to be worried about being heard again. Couldn't run it above #3 on the 1 to 20 dial indoors. It not only had 15" speakers, it was a bass reflex design with 4 round ports stacked vertically next to the 15" speakers. Those ports would flap the bottom of my bell bottoms if I was within about 3-feet of it. In my opinion that was the best there was in 71-73 and I include the acoustic 360/361 (great amp!) and the "new" Ampeg SVT with the 810 cab.
I think Ampeg proved pretty convincingly though with its 810 cab, that 10" speakers could produce a really big bass sound. That was the first shot across the bow by the 10" speakers challenging 12's and 15's. Next thing you know David Nordschow and his team are designing a 410 cab with tweeter and crossover for SWR and SWR's "Goliath 410" is born. That is arguably the first "full-frequency" bass cab due to the horn tweeter and built-in crossover being included inside the cab. Before that, you had to bi-amp (separate woofer cabs and high-frequency cabs) to get all the frequencies. This is really when you started to see full frequency cabs start to proliferate, and that was a definite improvement in bass sound.
The different size speakers do have different sounds, but now the lowest frequency cabs are sometimes 210 cabs instead of 215 cabs. But the sounds the different speakers make is still inherently different because of their size. The 10" speakers have faster transients because they move and recover faster than either the 12" or 15" speakers. The 12" and 15" still provide great sound but there is a difference in the character of the sound. The 10" speakers typically provide more punch and tighter low frequencies that either the 12" or 15" speakers. The modern 12" and 15" speakers still have punch and a tight low end, but they tend to have a rounder, woollier, smoother sound than the 10" speakers. So it becomes a question of which sound do you prefer as opposed to "you have to have 15-inch speakers to get a full bass sound".
I currently have a DNS-210 cab, a DNS-410 cab (I am a DNA Endorsing Artist), and two Eden EX-112 cabs. I sometimes use one of my 112 cabs for small venues like a small brew pubs. I used to use two 112's for medium-sized venues and used my 410 for outdoors and Festivals. Although I'll still use one 112 for small venues because it's so easy to load in and out, I'll use my 210 for medium and large venues while reserving my 410 for the outdoor venues and festivals. I really prefer the sound I get from my DNA cabs with the 10's although I've gotten a lot of compliments from other bass players when using my 112 Eden cabs too. So it's really a matter of taste now and not so much a matter of the size of the speakers.
4X10 or even better, use an 8x10 is for loud bass. The more speaker area the more bass loudness you'll get with the higher sensitivity speakers. Larger speaker cabinets will produce louder bass than a smaller diameter cabinet. A smaller speaker cone will require more movement to produce an equivalent loudness volume. And more speaker movement requires more power. An 8x10 is generally a more sensitive speaker system meaning that doesn't need as much power to produce loudness. Multiply the speaker area of an 8x10 vs a 15 inch speaker and you'll see that there is much more speaker cone are with an 8x10 than a single 8x10 than 2x10 or a single 1x15. Therefore more speaker area means less power is needed to create loudness.
I'm just talking about volume per watt. Tone is another topic and there are many more variables that go into the type of tone and that include the bass itself, technique and the chain of electronic gear involved. Apparently, most players these days use the house PA system and the tone from that is something you really can't control but you can control the signal that feeds into the PA.
I'm just talking about volume per watt. Tone is another topic and there are many more variables that go into the type of tone and that include the bass itself, technique and the chain of electronic gear involved. Apparently, most players these days use the house PA system and the tone from that is something you really can't control but you can control the signal that feeds into the PA.
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Cab design has improved incredibly in the last twenty years . I now use a lightweight , modular system that sounds better than anything I’ve run in the past . It fills the stage , and sounds great throughout the room .
Sounds better than the fridge , and the 15’s I used to run . And is a lot easier to haul around .
Sounds better than the fridge , and the 15’s I used to run . And is a lot easier to haul around .
'xactly. And those "other things" are often the special sauce ingredient that makes a manufacturer's speaker lineup attract the ears of the bass community. Ultimately it does boil down to the "ear" of the beholder (player).
I have a 12" and an 18" made by the same guy. They both sound absolutely wonderful! However, you won't see me bringing the 18" to a small corner bar and grill unless the owner want's the contents of his shelves rearranged.
Heck, we've already been told we're too loud in that type of environment to begin with.
The *general* trend is that the bigger the speaker, the less responsive it is to attack / quick transients, but ‘better’ low end
Smaller speakers respond very quickly, but... well I don’t really think they have bad bass response, but they’ll have less than giant speakers.
I have never, not once in a 20 year career so far, have I played something with 10” speakers and thought ‘mmm this just doesn’t have enough lows.’ In fact, I played Mike leagues Markbass cab that has all 8” speakers and it sounded great.
Basses just don’t need that much ‘bass’ in an eq sense. The meat of the sound is low mids, with the actual ‘lows’ just sort of fattening the sound. I find making a deep bass sound very loud maybe validates larger speakers, but even then I just don’t see a reason to go bigger than 12”
you’d never catch me dead or alive using just a 15” by itself. A younger, more adventurous me liked the idea of splitting the signal, with the lows going to a 15” and the rest of the signal going to smaller speakers and maybe a tweeter...But I’ve grown to be far too practical, and I’ve gotten fantastic tone out of 10 inch speakers, or a 2X12
