Double Bass New Ischell C3 Mic on the Gig

[rickwolff]

I got a mild case of Covid about the same time I bought my new Ischell Mic so last night was the first time I had a chance to try it on a gig.

IT WORKED BEAUTIFULLY.

There are a lot of things I like about this mic, but the first thing is:

THE SOUND. It gives a very natural presentation of my acoustic sound. The piano player I work with who moved here from New York, said "There are very few bassists here (in Raleigh) who get such a nice tone as yours. It wasn't an issue in NY but it is here".

NO BLEED. I've been using mics on the gig for some time because they just sound so much better and more natural than pickups. I've used several that sounded really nice but with most of them, a piano player I used to work with said "I hear my piano coming through your mic and your amp (and not in a good way). Not so with the Ischell.

STAYS ON THE BASS. If you're tired of a) remembering to pack the mic in your gig bag, b) remembering the attachment or stand or whatever, you don't have to worry about that with the Ischell. Find the spot that sounds best on your bass and just leave it there. It's also visually very unobtrusive.

NO FEEDBACK I suppose at some level of ear-bleeding volume even the Ischell could cause feedback but I haven't found that point.

PROVIDES ITS OWN PHANTOM POWER. I bought the one that comes with a little 9-volt battery pack which attaches along with the XLR connector box invisibly behind the tailpiece (and neither one weighs much of anything).

Does it sound exactly like, or just as good as a quality 'Air Mic'? I'd say that's a moot point in a live setting. To my ear (and I am rather picky) it sounded Just Like an air mic on last night's gig. So far the little sample recordings I've made at home sound very good.

I used to own a previous model of the Ischell mic and it was good but I ended up selling it because it didn't sound as good as the air mics I was using. The new microphone unit Fischer is putting in the new models (C3) seems to have closed the gap.

Would I buy this new Ischell Mic again? Absolutely.

 

[tito mangialajo]

Very interesting. Thanks for the review. It's possible to use it without his own Phamtom Box? I mean, does it sounds through an Headway EDB2 and to the amplifier?

 

[Wasnex]

Very interesting. Thanks for the review. It's possible to use it without his own Phamtom Box? I mean, does it sounds through an Headway EDB2 and to the amplifier?

AFAIK, the mic used in the pickup is a condenser, so it requires power. The pickup can be ordered in a variety of configurations to meet your specific requirements. Double bass pickups - ISCHELL Before placing an order, I suggest doing research, taking notes, and then asking questions to confirm you are getting the best option.

Phantom power can come from a mixer, preamp, inline power supply, or an (optional) Ischell phantom module that runs off a 9V battery. The pickup can also be ordered with XLR out, 1/4" out, or both.

I agree it's a bit confusing to have so many options.

 

[rickwolff]

Very interesting. Thanks for the review. It's possible to use it without his own Phamtom Box? I mean, does it sounds through an Headway EDB2 and to the amplifier?

Wasnex is correct (on all counts, I believe). The 'built-in' Phantom Power is all within the little XLR box (about 3" long and 3/4" square). The only additional item is the little 9v battery bag with a short lead to the XLR box.

If you want this option you do have to order it this way. The reason I did so is that I like the option of running it directly into a bass amp with no external pre-amp of PP supply. That simply requires an optional adapter that goes from the XLR cable to a 1/4 inch cable which is then plugged into the bass amp. Mine sounds really nice through my MAS 16 driven by the tiny BAM200 head.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The 9 volts is not phantom power. Phantom power gets delivered over the hot and inverse pins at the XLR against the ground on the shield and it is 48 volts.
Some preamps deliver less voltage but in the same way. This is out of the specification and works with some phantom powered mics and less to not with others.

These small mic capsules in the contact mics are electret condenser capsules that need something between 1.5 to 10 volts to power up the FET. Typically electret mic preamps (like the AKG B29L) have a mini-XLR connector that has ground, hot and supply voltage, so an unbalanced signal with separate power.
This is not phantom power where the hot and inverse lines share the phantom power with the signal.

The AKG B29L can use a 9 volts battery to power the connected electret but also has a circuit to extract 48 volts phantom power from the XLR-output if powered from a mixer or something similar and generate a 9 volts supply voltage from the 48 volts phantom power on the separate line to power the electret mic.

BTW, in most cases there is only a resistor and a capacitor needed between the supply power and FET and the FET and hot line. This is what is hidden in the connector-like thing.

In very rare cases there is no FET at the electret capsule. Often these are bigger ones like used in a studio electret condenser (i.e. the Audio-Technica AT-2020 or the SE Electronics X1 A as cheaper examples) with a larger diaphragm diameter than the small ones in contact mics They are better than the small ones, more expensive and leave the choice of the FET to the mic designer to get his optimal sound.

 

[Ric Vice]

Wasnex is correct (on all counts, I believe). The 'built-in' Phantom Power is all within the little XLR box (about 3" long and 3/4" square). The only additional item is the little 9v battery bag with a short lead to the XLR box.

If you want this option you do have to order it this way. The reason I did so is that I like the option of running it directly into a bass amp with no external pre-amp of PP supply. That simply requires an optional adapter that goes from the XLR cable to a 1/4 inch cable which is then plugged into the bass amp. Mine sounds really nice through my MAS 16 driven by the tiny BAM200 head.

While, I’m not one to hang things of the tailpiece of my bass, since it’s a smaller instrument (5/8 th’s) with a bigger bass like Rick’s It seems very practical. I’m fairly certain the secondary power available from the Grace Design Felix would suffice. Just my take. I know it will work with other similar electret condensers.

 

[Earl]

Hey Rick,

Having tried the Xjack version and not being completely satisfied (could not get enough useable volume with a drummer, hollow/boomy sound etc.), do you think this new version is that much different/better? Please say no and save me some money haha!

 

[rickwolff]

Hey Rick,

Having tried the Xjack version and not being completely satisfied (could not get enough useable volume with a drummer, hollow/boomy sound etc.), do you think this new version is that much different/better? Please say no and save me some money haha!

I think the main difference is in the quality of the sound. Probably not much different in volume. I didn't have a problem with volume when I had the Xjack. Perhaps your bass top is not a resonant as mine? Although, if you're talking about your 1950 Juzek and IF THAT IS A CARVED BASS I doubt that is the issue. Did you try different positions for the mic?

So, yeah, you can probably save your money - especially if you already have something else that is working well for you.

You're welcome.

 

[Earl]

I think the main difference is in the quality of the sound. Probably not much different in volume. I didn't have a problem with volume when I had the Xjack. Perhaps your bass top is not a resonant as mine? Although, if you're talking about your 1950 Juzek and IF THAT IS A CARVED BASS I doubt that is the issue. Did you try different positions for the mic?

So, yeah, you can probably save your money - especially if you already have something else that is working well for you.

You're welcome.

Yeah tried all positions, even on the back. My bass sounds amazing acoustically but is notoriously difficult to amplify. As much as I would prefer to use them, body contact mics/pickups do not seem to work so well. The Erhlund did not work at all. The Yamahiko has been my go to, the attack/decay seems a bit more natural than most piezos, although I recently tried the KNA and that works nicely as well. Thanks!

 

[rickwolff]

Yeah tried all positions, even on the back. My bass sounds amazing acoustically but is notoriously difficult to amplify. As much as I would prefer to use them, body contact mics/pickups do not seem to work so well. The Erhlund did not work at all. The Yamahiko has been my go to, the attack/decay seems a bit more natural than most piezos, although I recently tried the KNA and that works nicely as well. Thanks!

You're welcome.

Don't spend it all in one place.

 

[Wasnex]

Yeah tried all positions, even on the back. My bass sounds amazing acoustically but is notoriously difficult to amplify. As much as I would prefer to use them, body contact mics/pickups do not seem to work so well. The Erhlund did not work at all. The Yamahiko has been my go to, the attack/decay seems a bit more natural than most piezos, although I recently tried the KNA and that works nicely as well. Thanks!

In my experience super resonant instruments don't tend to amplify all that well, especially if you need relatively high volume. If your bass is extremely resonant, you are probably better off with a pickup that attaches to the bridge. The idea is to focus the pickup more on the pure string vibrations, and less on the mechanical vibrations of the bass's body. So, in choosing a pickup I think you need to think about balancing the body vibrations against the string vibrations.

The pickup, bass, amp, and speaker are all part of a system; or you could think of the combination as a different instrument: Amplified Acoustic Upright Bass. The frequency response of this system is never going to be exactly the same as the bass being played acoustically.

Also the tone is going to shift some as you change gain settings. As you turn up the gain, a feedback loop forms between the bass, speaker, and other components in the signal path that further degrades the linearity between the bass's acoustic response and the amplified response. My perception is any resonant peaks in the overall response will become more and more exaggerated as you turn up the gain. The more volume you need, the worse the problem gets. At some point the tone become unusual or the system crosses over into continous freedback.

With some basses you can use progressive corrective EQ. The idea with progressive, is the more volume you derive from the amp, the deeper you will have to cut certain frequencies to keep the sound from getting overly peaky. As a peak grows, you apply more EQ in the opposite direction. Fully parametric EQ is the ideal tool for this...but not necessarily the most intuitive to use.


Normally the corrective EQ consists of deep narrow notches to control feedback nodes, and gentle wide-band cuts to massage the overall voicing back into shape. This strategy may not be very effective on a highly resonant instrument.

The last bass I played was designed to be an acoustic cannon. It was a 7/8 monster. The ribs were deep, but made out of very thin material. The bass proved to be a very fragile instrument because of the way it was built. It had sort of a wide-band rumble in the low mids. You could hear this quality acoustically as well, but IMHO it made the bass seem louder and more powerful, so you could say it was a positive attribute. When amplified the rumble was overemphasized and I could never really use EQ to really dial in a nice, balanced tone. Nobody ever complained, but it always sounded sort of boxey to me.

For context I used one of the original Realist pickups that sat under one of the bridge feet. I think a Realist LifeLine would probably have worked a lot better with that particular bass.

 

[Earl]

In my experience super resonant instruments don't tend to amplify all that well, especially if you need relatively high volume. If your bass is extremely resonant, you are probably better off with a pickup that attaches to the bridge. The idea is to focus the pickup more on the pure string vibrations, and less on the mechanical vibrations of the bass's body. So, in choosing a pickup I think you need to think about balancing the body vibrations against the string vibrations.

The pickup, bass, amp, and speaker are all part of a system; or you could think of the combination as a different instrument: Amplified Acoustic Upright Bass. The frequency response of this system is never going to be exactly the same as the bass being played acoustically.

Also the tone is going to shift some as you change gain settings. As you turn up the gain, a feedback loop forms between the bass, speaker, and other components in the signal path that further degrades the linearity between the bass's acoustic response and the amplified response. My perception is any resonant peaks in the overall response will become more and more exaggerated as you turn up the gain. The more volume you need, the worse the problem gets. At some point the tone become unusual or the system crosses over into continous freedback.

With some basses you can use progressive corrective EQ. The idea with progressive, is the more volume you derive from the amp, the deeper you will have to cut certain frequencies to keep the sound from getting overly peaky. As a peak grows, you apply more EQ in the opposite direction. Fully parametric EQ is the ideal tool for this...but not necessarily the most intuitive to use.


Normally the corrective EQ consists of deep narrow notches to control feedback nodes, and gentle wide-band cuts to massage the overall voicing back into shape. This strategy may not be very effective on a highly resonant instrument.

The last bass I played was designed to be an acoustic cannon. It was a 7/8 monster. The ribs were deep, but made out of very thin material. The bass proved to be a very fragile instrument because of the way it was built. It had sort of a wide-band rumble in the low mids. You could hear this quality acoustically as well, but IMHO it made the bass seem louder and more powerful, so you could say it was a positive attribute. When amplified the rumble was overemphasized and I could never really use EQ to really dial in a nice, balanced tone. Nobody ever complained, but it always sounded sort of boxey to me.

For context I used one of the original Realist pickups that sat under one of the bridge feet. I think a Realist LifeLine would probably have worked a lot better with that particular bass.

Yes, thanks. I have had this 7/8ths subwoofer bass since 1981 and have found that bridge wing pickups work best. I also have a Chadwick that is fairly quiet acoustically compared to it, but so much easier to amplify.

 

[ablumley]

Does it sound exactly like, or just as good as a quality 'Air Mic'? I'd say that's a moot point in a live setting. To my ear (and I am rather picky) it sounded Just Like an air mic on last night's gig. So far the little sample recordings I've made at home sound very good.

I used to own a previous model of the Ischell mic and it was good but I ended up selling it because it didn't sound as good as the air mics I was using. The new microphone unit Fischer is putting in the new models (C3) seems to have closed the gap.

Glad you're better and getting good results with the C3 on the gig @rickwolff !

Have you tried the C3 with a bow yet? For me, that's where the original falls way short of an air mic...

 

[rickwolff]

Glad you're better and getting good results with the C3 on the gig @rickwolff !

Have you tried the C3 with a bow yet? For me, that's where the original falls way short of an air mic...

Haven't tried that yet, but I will.

Also, for switching between pizz and arco (regardless of mic or pickup) I expect it would help to have a separate EQ for each. I can accomplish that in one of two ways:

1. I have a two-channel amp (Genzler/Gollihur Acoustic Pro) and a simple A/B switch that can switch from one channel set up for pizz to the other channel set up for arco.

2. Use something like my Dual Parametric EQ in the Effects Return - I'm not sure about how I would do the switching with this but it's probably simple.