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New Student Has ZERO Musical Knowlede. The Norm?

L

LeopoldBoom

Aug 27, 2012
129
6
Ireland
#1
Hi everybody,
Just thought I'd post an interesting experience I just had. I met up with a kid who's I guess 17-21ish to give him his first bass lesson. We chatted on the phone a bit over the last few days and I gathered that he had never played any music ever before. "Great!" says I, a clean slate, no bad habits etc.
He turns out to be a really nice dude, super enthusiastic and eager to learn absolutely everything he can about bass. Over the last week he's taken out library books on the subject and pored over them like there's no tomorrow. Great stuff!
He seems to be a very fast learner and was playing the ole' simplified E major 12 bar blues line in no time but it really struck me just how little he knew about music. I'm not slamming this kid at all, he's a cool dude with great potential, rather it was a sort of an eye opener for me. Being so wrapped up in music all the time I (and I'm guessing most of us) sort of take it for granted in a way. I'll give an example of the kind of lack of knowledge I'm talking about.
I was showing him how to read notes on the staff, just the naturals, and mentioned offhand that there were notes in between those notes which we would come to in due course. "You've probably heard of them before, they're called sharps and flats" *blank expression* "have you heard of that before? Sharps and flats? Like 'A sharp' or 'B flat?'" Nope. Never heard those words in his life.
Same with the concept of counting the beat in music using numbers. "So in 4/4 (after explaining time sigs and him getting it) we count bars like 1234 1234". This was a radical concept, blew his mind that music could be counted!

I know I should never assume any prepossessed knowledge, and in no way am I judging anybody. I just found it extremely interesting and wonder now is it the norm among whatever percentage of the population don't play or study music. Usually I teach guys who have learned the basics before, I think this was my first 'from scratch' student. It sorted of knocked me off my little musician pedestal and into the real world! Sorry for the aimless rant, it seemed more coherent in my head!

NUTSHELL: Student teaches teacher that there is A LOT more to life than music.


Sorry for the blabber!
 
#4
One of the greatest singers and songwriters of all time, Captain Beefheart, refused to learn anything technical about music. Upon seeing one of his band members writing the musical ideas he came up with on a piano in musical notatation, he asked something like, "You mean you'll be able to look at this and play that back?" I'd look up the exact quote, but it came from a book that is nearly 900 pages long.
 
#5
I teach quite a few students of all ages and experiences.
Some of them have had prior experience with music in schools...recorder...ukelele
Some of them don't. Everyone has to start somewhere when learning a new skill.

More times than not, my new students have no experience. Explaining notes and time signatures is so foreign to them that I could be teaching them the firing order of a small block Chevy for all they know.

The worst students for me to teach are the ones who have no experience *listening* to music. I had one a couple weeks ago that told me they don't listen to ANY music.
What do you say to that?
 
#6
LeopoldBoom said:
Same with the concept of counting the beat in music using numbers. "So in 4/4 (after explaining time sigs and him getting it) we count bars like 1234 1234". This was a radical concept, blew his mind that music could be counted!
Click to expand...
Heh... drummer in my first band was like that. Yes, the drummer had no concept of time signatures or counting. The odd thing was he was pretty solid. He wasn't flashy and completely self taught (obviously) but he kept time very well, never a dropped beat.
 
#10
For some people music is only background noise, not something you actually pay attention to. My mom has never listened to music, but she will put that easy listening crap on during dinner. She has zero idea what I do as a musician, but she bought me my first real bass.

As for no musical training, I'm the only person in my immediate family who has bothered to learn about music. So when I started taking lessons as a teenager I started from scratch. I grew up with friends who played in string bands in the Philadelphia Mummers; they knew something about music (and they knew even more about getting crazy drunk on the nights before Mummers parades), but I was a complete n00b.
 
#11
LeopoldBoom said:
Hi everybody,
Just thought I'd post an interesting experience I just had. I met up with a kid who's I guess 17-21ish to give him his first bass lesson. We chatted on the phone a bit over the last few days and I gathered that he had never played any music ever before. "Great!" says I, a clean slate, no bad habits etc.
He turns out to be a really nice dude, super enthusiastic and eager to learn absolutely everything he can about bass. Over the last week he's taken out library books on the subject and pored over them like there's no tomorrow. Great stuff!
He seems to be a very fast learner and was playing the ole' simplified E major 12 bar blues line in no time but it really struck me just how little he knew about music. I'm not slamming this kid at all, he's a cool dude with great potential, rather it was a sort of an eye opener for me. Being so wrapped up in music all the time I (and I'm guessing most of us) sort of take it for granted in a way. I'll give an example of the kind of lack of knowledge I'm talking about.
I was showing him how to read notes on the staff, just the naturals, and mentioned offhand that there were notes in between those notes which we would come to in due course. "You've probably heard of them before, they're called sharps and flats" *blank expression* "have you heard of that before? Sharps and flats? Like 'A sharp' or 'B flat?'" Nope. Never heard those words in his life.
Same with the concept of counting the beat in music using numbers. "So in 4/4 (after explaining time sigs and him getting it) we count bars like 1234 1234". This was a radical concept, blew his mind that music could be counted!

I know I should never assume any prepossessed knowledge, and in no way am I judging anybody. I just found it extremely interesting and wonder now is it the norm among whatever percentage of the population don't play or study music. Usually I teach guys who have learned the basics before, I think this was my first 'from scratch' student. It sorted of knocked me off my little musician pedestal and into the real world! Sorry for the aimless rant, it seemed more coherent in my head!

NUTSHELL: Student teaches teacher that there is A LOT more to life than music.

Sorry for the blabber!
Click to expand...

Most schools have deemed music and art as nonessential. My kids school has zero music classes at all thru grade 12. We have killer graphics on our football stuff though. I'm told by many parents that's what's important.
 
#12
I am 42 now and started playing the bass at 17, prior to that I had zero knowledge about music, never took it in school, never had any lessons at a young age.

I taught myself for the first year until I could play in a band and then learned a lot very quickly playing with other musicians.

I think most people are the same way unless they are interested or forced to learn about music.
 
#14
Interesting thoughts. I suppose it comes down to learning the codified version of music that we all eventually become acquainted with.

Guitarists and electric bassists often start out "playing it by ear", so to speak, whereas brass, woodwind, strings, and piano have a deeper pedagogical history and tradition and tend to receive a more holistic musical education from the beginning. The Suzuki method applied to bass for little ones would be a fascinating experiment.

Story time.

I played in a band with a guitarist when I was about 14 (that was eleven years ago, he's now a groomsmen in my wedding, but anyway...). We played a stack of different cover tunes and he was a really good player for his age and all that.

I remember me and the the drummer sending him and our singer away to write some lyrics while we sorted something out. He said "But I need the rhythm to help me write the lyrics." And we said "But it's just in 4/4, you know, four beats to a bar, so you should be able to sort it in your head. Just tap your feet in 4/4." He was dumbfounded, and said "So, like, you want us to write the lyrics so its one word on every beat like 'I...feel...so...sad...'? That's stupid. Why would we do that?" I had no idea where to start explaining the very concept of dividing beats into bars, and the idea of rhythms and so on. Totally threw me.

But it had a happy ending; he ended up completing an honours degree in music composition, and now teaches and conducts as a day job. Name a chord or scale, he can tell you its notes in a snap. It's like Dustin Hoffmann in Rain Man. He came a long way.
 
#15
jay stevens said:
I teach quite a few students of all ages and experiences.
Some of them have had prior experience with music in schools...recorder...ukelele
Some of them don't. Everyone has to start somewhere when learning a new skill.
Click to expand...
As school budgets get slashed, art and music are the first to go. This is a trend that is growing, and will continue unless we actively reverse it.

As a music lover, I think it's borderline negligent to allow a student to graduate without having at least a cursory knowledge of music.
 
#16
notverygood said:
Most schools have deemed music and art as nonessential. My kids school has zero music classes at all thru grade 12. We have killer graphics on our football stuff though. I'm told by many parents that's what's important.
Click to expand...

Unrepresented said:
As school budgets get slashed, art and music are the first to go. This is a trend that is growing, and will continue unless we actively reverse it.

As a music lover, I think it's borderline negligent to allow a student to graduate without having at least a cursory knowledge of music.
Click to expand...

Our middle school has a 7th-8th grade "jazz band" program that draws some 80+ kids - this in a school with less than a thousand students, serving three towns with a total population less than 30,000. I used to find it incredibly annoying, because when I was growing up anybody who wanted to play went in the concert band and the jazz band was for the dozen or so who were dedicated enough to stay for after-school rehearsals.

But now I realize what's going on; every other year, the jazz band director takes the band on a trip to Disney World where there's a Middle School Jazz festival. They get to play and, of course, spend a few days at Disney. So there's huge demand to be in the jazz band, and he doesn't turn anyone away.

As a result, while the performances give a whole new meaning to the idea of "big band" :eek: the music program is incredibly popular with the kids and their families and nobody EVER talks about cutting its funding...
 
#17
hrodbert696 said:
Our middle school has a 7th-8th grade "jazz band" program that draws some 80+ kids - this in a school with less than a thousand students, serving three towns with a total population less than 30,000. I used to find it incredibly annoying, because when I was growing up anybody who wanted to play went in the concert band and the jazz band was for the dozen or so who were dedicated enough to stay for after-school rehearsals.

But now I realize what's going on; every other year, the jazz band director takes the band on a trip to Disney World where there's a Middle School Jazz festival. They get to play and, of course, spend a few days at Disney. So there's huge demand to be in the jazz band, and he doesn't turn anyone away.

As a result, while the performances give a whole new meaning to the idea of "big band" :eek: the music program is incredibly popular with the kids and their families and nobody EVER talks about cutting its funding...
Click to expand...

I am happy to hear that they've found a workaround to the funding issues that many other schools face, as well as the success in recruiting students into the program. Unfortunately not all schools are able to achieve that level of success.
 
#19
I think when you've immersed yourself with music for a while, you take it for granted that others are similar. I agree with the points about people treating music as though it's something background - a lot of people I know don't really listen to music as much beyond the fact that it sounds "nice". They're not that interested in how <x> instrument in a song sounds, let alone deeper details like rhythms.

Great that the student is really keen on music!
 
#20
I have a buddy who I remembered played trumpet in the school bands for years, so after I started playing bass and just starting to learn theory, I thought maybe why not pick his brain a little bit. I figured with his 4-5 years of playing trumpet, he'd be pretty informative on the topic and could help me out a little.

I came to find that that little bit of knowledge I had already learned on the topic had already surpassed him. I think at first I brought up something about modes and got a completely blank stare as a response. Then I tried something on scale degrees, and all I got was a drawn out "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..." Then finally just the major scale which almost seemed to ring a bell, but he ultimately drew a blank. In his defense I don't think he ever had any passion for music at that point, mostly playing cause his dad played trumpet.
 

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