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Double Bass New to German bow. Weight and balance quesions.

Uncletoad

Uncletoad

May 6, 2003
5,272
160
64
Columbus Ohio
Disclosures
Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
#1
Playing French exclusively with all French teachers. Lately it seems like the German hold and bow might be more sympathetic to my body and playing. I haven't had the opportunity to hook up with a German teacher but it's on my list.

I borrowed one for a bit to try it out and it was heavy and cheap but it gave me the impetus to buy one. My French bow is a Prochownik Sartory about 130 gms. I like it very much. I discussed the German Bow with him and his prices are out of my range at the moment, however he had a "second" stick that he sent with a manufactured frog with wood that wasn't up to snuff. He's selling it very cheaply.

It seems a bit light at 120gms, the screw would need changed as I can't stand plastic but other than that it seems like a bow that performs better than it's price.

What I don't like is some of the sounds coming from my bass. Don't know if they are user error or stick issues. I've got a few more sticks coming to audition together, all in a similar price range. So I might know more with comparisons. I'm going to try to have a German player work with all the sticks and my bass to see if a good hand has an opinion too.

Meanwhile I'm wondering about bow weight and balance. I'm drawn to the super light bow but I wonder if that's the right thing? Since I'm new to the hold I can't really be sure of the sounds I'm getting from it. I'd like to see if anyone here has other suggestions about bow weight balance etc. on German sticks, or any other opinions on transitioning to German.
 
#2
A bit of googling tells me that my Metropolitan should be around 135 g, and that most German bows are within 5 grams or so of that weight. I think the Metropolitan is pretty much perfect, so to me that suggests that 120 g is rather light.

Main thing with transitioning is to remember that you have finger joints; it's very easy to lock up your whole hand and just play with the wrist. But all those finger joints give a lot of flexibility and really do need to be doing something. And take care not to strain your pinkie, it takes a bit more load with a German grip, and in a strange direction.
 
#3
Uncletoad said:
What I don't like is some of the sounds coming from my bass. Don't know if they are user error or stick issues.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with the sounds, or how are they different than the french bow sounds?

I play both bows, started on french then switched to german for a couple years, now back to french mostly. When I switched to German I thought something similar to you, that it just seemed like it worked better with my body and style of playing. I don't really feel that way anymore; I think it was a bit of a honeymoon that I had with the new strength of the "other" kind of bow. I recommend learning both bows though; I think the techniques complement each other.

I think a light German bow can work better than a light french bow because I think it's easier to put more arm weight into the bow in a natural way. Also, I assume you're not doing orchestra work (where a heavier bow with a big sound might be preferred) so a light bow might be fine, and less strain on your arm. 120g is pretty light though; I'd say my lower limit of what I like is in the 130s.

People will disagree and say that balance is more important than weight because most of the weight comes from your arm. My own experience is different. I'd say the balance of a heavier bow is very important for nimbleness, but if a bow is too light, it generally doesn't play very well for me.
 
#4
crowsmengegus said:
What's wrong with the sounds, or how are they different than the french bow sounds?
Click to expand...
So far I'm not pulling as rich and full a loud a sound out of the bass with the German bow. I use spirocores and they sound like spirocores with someone who doesn't have bow skills. Skittery and scratchy starts. The borrowed bow was heavier and seemed to start better but sounded like a clunky mess. Crap really.

Nothing is singing. Like I say, could be learning curve, could be the stick, could be both.

I'll know more when I have several bows in the room at the same time.
 
#5
I have read and re-read your post. You're an articulate guy but, for some reason, this post is confusing. Why are you expecting beautiful sounds to emanate from a cheap bow and a new technique. I fully understand wanting to change grips etc but I think you are going to have to get a serious bow if you're serious about your arco sound. You've got a nice bass, don't skimp now...Reid Hudson, Sue Lipkins...try their bows and see how you sound. You don't have to buy them but try them. Lifes too short to play crappy bows.
 
#6
Prochownik's bows can be very light (I had one @120 gr) and take some getting used to. The bow he made for me a few years ago was a more normal weight of 132 gr and at @$2K played better and drew a bigger sound than some bows at 2x the price. The Hudson and Lipkins bows are going to be in $4-5K range.

With all that I've heard about the Alsatian Queen, Jason's probably right about what the bass and you deserve. Given budgets (and skipping the whole carbon fibre debate) there are good bows to be had from Tom Owen, Guasti, Bottoni and some of the other "Water Violet" makers.

As for sounds, German bow is all about weight (elbow, arm, shoulder - depending who you listen to) and not squeezing the frog. Other than that, I wouldn't presume to give you advice.

Welcome to the dark (german!) side!

Louis
 
#7
Of course. Thanks for the kind bitch slapping.

I spoke to Reid Hudson, he's over $4K. I played a RH that was divine awhile back but I'm not one to audition things I'm not prepared to buy. This DB thing is a cash sucking pig.

The recession has beat the crap out of me and my money. Makes me look at the world in a different way. Not bad in most cases but in this one I should probably do what I've always done with work tools, buy great stuff.

To be fair to Prochownik I have used his French bow for many years and don't have any reason to want another. Perhaps if I audition one of his proper German bows I'd be happier.
 
#9
I wish I had $4K somewhere, I'd be auditioning a Reid Hudson. As it is I'll have to sell another bass first. Not my favorite thing to do.

I've got a German teacher I know so that's on my list. Thanks for the tips. I'll keep those in mind.
 
#11
LouisF said:
there are good bows to be had from Tom Owen, Guasti, Bottoni and some of the other "Water Violet" makers.
Click to expand...


This. Geez Jason, you trying to talk him into a Lipkins?

You can't get a great bow for $500, but you can for $1000-2000, pretty easily. I'd say 4k is overboard, even if it would get you a bow that's better than great.

I've played German bows from Tom Owen and Les Korus under 2k that are great. I've never really liked the Germans from the Brazilian crowd (Water Violet) but I really like their french bows. Toad, you've got experience, I'm sure that once you get a bundle of German bows in reach you'll find something that feels and sounds right.
 
#13
crowsmengegus said:
This. Geez Jason, you trying to talk him into a Lipkins?

You can't get a great bow for $500, but you can for $1000-2000, pretty easily. I'd say 4k is overboard, even if it would get you a bow that's better than great.

I've played German bows from Tom Owen and Les Korus under 2k that are great. I've never really liked the Germans from the Brazilian crowd (Water Violet) but I really like their french bows. Toad, you've got experience, I'm sure that once you get a bundle of German bows in reach you'll find something that feels and sounds right.
Click to expand...
Good tips. Thanks.
 
#15
I'm one of those people that think the bow is almost more important than the bass. I have no experience with those other makers. I bought my Reid Hudson (after trying about ten different bows from Sue and Reid) for $2200 in 2001 and never looked back. I never once looked at my bow and wondered if I wasn't getting something right because of the quality of my bow. If it wasn't sounding good, then it was ME, not anything else. For my personality that was a good choice. I like that I have never looked at another bow since I bought this one, not once. I don't know, life is short. Sometimes I just splurge and get myself something special.
 
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#18
My current teacher weighed in on all this. Politely through a series of well constructed rhetorical questions she suggested that I might be looking to equipment to solve problems better suited to practice. Suggested that while she feels like German may be more ergonomic the concept of restarting my technique with such a limited amount of practice time would set me back years.

Smart woman.
 

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