OK, I know I'm stepping in to a briar patch here, but since a number of issues have been brought up, I'm hoping we can have a productive discussion here.
Thanks wyliee. I appreciate you stepping into the fray.
No briar patch, just an outspoken curmudgeon who tried your necks and didn't like them. That's just me, though. I do love your bass bodies, and plenty of other bassists (many here) love your necks! I'm sure we can have a fruitful discussion that everyone can participate in. I'd love to see what more bassists think about your neck options. And I understand you're not in a position to make business promises for the company, but maybe you can get some unsolicited market research out of the thread.
Why the double expanding truss rod and steel rods? To address S curves common in older Fender necks and to address dead spots. In short, to eliminate these problems and offer a better neck.
Totally understood. I remember reading the same copy on your website years ago before I bought my first Warmoth neck. And it made sense to me on paper.
A "better" neck? That's a tricky question. "Better" is
highly subjective.
Maintenance free? Less prone to problems? Absolutely. No argument there. If you're traveling around the world 250 days out of the year, through extreme temperature and humidity changes, then you totally need a rigid neck.
Better
sounding? That's a very different question. (And probably beyond the scope of this forum).
As I said earlier, I
can see a stiffer neck being better for some things: perhaps more sustain for a fretless, or a more even, piano-like tone in some cases. But I don't think it's the best neck for everyone, 100% of the time.
<aside>
My '79 Jazz is very heavy, dense bass, with a rigid neck. It has a midrange-heavy, 70's bark to it. But absolutely zero warmth. It's a great sound
when I want it, but I don't want that sound 100% of the time. It's a stock Fender neck from '79, and I think I've adjusted the truss rod twice since 1989.
My '71 Precision sounds completely different. Very warm, lots of punch, very "vintage" sounding. It's got a stock Fender neck, and I think I've adjusted the truss rod once since i got it in 2001.
Some days I need my Jazz Bass's tone, Some days I need my P-Bass's tone.
</aside>
Why would anyone replace a problem neck with another likely to have the same problems?
Because it sounds better?
Or I should say, it sounds
the same as the one being replaced. Warmoth is in a kind of a funny spot: you sell replacement necks for Fender basses. If someone wants to build a bass from scratch, they may very well want to choose "modern" or "vintage-modern" construction methods. But if someone is
replacing the neck on their '71 Precision... or heaven for bid, their 63 Precision... I'd wager they want it to sound the same. I'd wager they don't want it to suddenly sound like an '07 American Standard.
(You offer vintage construction for guitar necks. While I know the stresses put on a guitar neck are not like the stresses on a bass neck, I'm actually curious what percentage of guitar customers choose vintage construction?)
Why would anyone replace a problem neck with another likely to have the same problems?
How often do you replace the tires on your car? Every couple of years, probably. What if you could use harder-compound tires that took 10 years to wear out, but had less traction in the rain, and made you feel every single bump in the road? I'd still buy the tires that felt better even if I had to replace them more often.
We're bass players. We replace strings. We replace tubes. We replace speakers. We replace stuff that wears out because it sounds really good before it wears out.
<aside>
And seriously...
how old are these necks that are plagued with S-curves and dead spots? 1950s? 1960s?
My basses:
'79 Jazz
'71 Precision
'79 Music Man
'77 Gibson Rd Artist
Maybe I'm just
really lucky, but none of my necks have issues. And I can honestly say that I treat my basses like boat anchors. They should be warped beyond all recognition, but they're not.
</aside>
The vast majority of our customers do not complain about the weight or difference in tone.
No question I have weird taste. Maybe I'm just a vocal minority. Or maybe I have rocks in my head. Ask my wife.
They'd rather have a neck that's going to hold up under a variety of conditions.
Understood. It's a tradeoff.
Please realize there is no one single solution for every person and preference.
Totally understood. That's why you offer so many options for guitar necks!
Why are there limited options? Guitars amount to roughly 80-90% of sales.
Doh!
This is consistent with other manufacturers and retailers in the music industry. Guitars outsell basses. With finite resources at hand, it makes sense to focus on those items responsible for the most sales.
Don't worry. Us bass players are a thick-skinned lot. We're used to being second-class citizens. We're used to guitar players getting all the glory. But at least we're not DRUMMERS!
Seriously, I understand. You guys are running a business. That's what it boils down to. Are you a one-at-a-time, hand made, 100% custom guitar shop? No. You're way too big for that. You're producing a commodity, and you have to make decisions, draw the line somewhere. Totally understood. There are smaller shops out there that can cater to us highly-demanding misanthropes.
Honestly, if Warmoth doubled their bass options, I seriously doubt there would be a corresponding increase in sales.
It's impossible to know, but you know your customers way better than I do.
Do you have statistics on how many repeat customers vs. one-off customers for bass necks? (I know that statistic is virtually impossible to collect.)
I bought one neck from you 8 or 10 years ago, then got another in trade soon after from a friend. But once I realized what I didn't like... once I realized I couldn't order another neck with the options I wanted, I stopped thinking about Warmoth necks. How many other customers bought one bass neck then never returned? (Impossible to tell, I know.)
With that said (again), the slim taper is a response to customer requests.
That's great that you guys did that. I'm not a slim neck guy, but lots of people are. That's cool. Power to the people!
fu22, you mentioned wanting a neck without the stiffening rods and would be willing to accept fighting with dead spots and no warranty. Are you serious about what you said and are there others here that agree?
Am I serious? Oh hell yes.
I have four basses that have no stiffening rods. People buy basses on this site and on eBay every day that have no stiffening rods.
There's a neck in the TB classifieds RIGHT NOW that someone's asking $650 for:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=664928
A '76 "A"-contour P bass neck. Beat to hell, frets completely shot. And I'm SECOND in line for it. Someone else beat me to it. That neck has got to be absolutely shot to hell. You must have to
earn every single note. But I know exactly what that neck sounds like.
Are there others that agree? I have no idea.
If you could order a neck with no steel rods and only a one year warranty, how many of you would do that? Graphite rods are quite a bit more expensive than steel rods. How many are willing to pay extra for graphite? How much??
A neck with no steel rods... probably. A neck with graphite rods? Would I pay more? Absolutely.
Your Maple/Maple neck is $180. I would pay an extra $50 for graphite in a heartbeat.
FYI, The double expanding truss rod option is pretty well set in stone as far as I can tell.
Understood.
I'm not an officer of the company so I cannot make any specific business promises. What I can guarantee is if there is a valid business case for changes, I *will* present them to the ownership. It won't make sense to some to intentionally introduce (what is seen as) a flaw in vintage necks though.
I think no reinforcement rods, total vintage, is a bad idea from your company's perspective. It's product suicide.
But I think graphite rods (for an extra cost) with a double-expanding truss rod would be a kick-butt product.
If you had the graphite rods manufactured the same shape and size as the steel ones, would you even need to change any of your CNC process? Just drop in the graphite instead of steel? Is it that simple? $50 bucks more and were done here?
You have to understand, people like me are OCD. We're willing to pay more to get things exactly how we want them. We're middle-aged, we have disposable income, and we buy basses to fill the voids in our souls.
Maybe post a couple of polls here on TB with possible new neck options? Take six months and get some numbers together to show the powers that be.
Like I said in my earlier post, I
want to love your necks. Some of the necks in your bass showcase are absolutely drool-worthy. But every time I think about adding one to my shopping cart, I remember the sound of those last two...
(Nice new website, BTW. It was a long time coming and looks great.)
OK, I've got my kevlar undies on now. Again, there are multiple perspectives and preferences here. We may need to agree to disagree on some things.
