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New Wireless Player In The Game

Glad the Lekato works for you I couldn’t get 15seconds without dropout on my 5.6 Lekato.
I was able to return it.
This church can be an RF nightmare.
It’s
Sadly, this goes back to the old “buy once, cry once” saying.

I have always saved to buy TOTL wireless gear from Sennheiser or Shure with the exception of my Mipro IEM system. It was about 2/3 the cost of upgrading my old Senn G3 to a G4 model, and it has more features. Happy with it. Still use a Senn G4 for bass wireless tho'. Again, no issues.

Yes, I understand the whole budget aspect, but reading some of the issues/problems/challenges folks have experienced with “cheap” wireless units - on here and other forums - the peace of mind is well worth the extra $$ (IME).
 
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Agree on the buy once cry once philosophy . You have to pay for quality build and durability. Fishman is going after the smaller footprint design but with added features and reliability . But you pay for that $319 vs $49
 
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Marketing aside 2.4ghz wireless would be a no go for me.....at least anywhere where I need wireless to work as close to 100% as possible all the time.

Somewhere I seen that form factor wireless system before under a different brand name.

That looks to be around 3 x 2 inches in size or so, to me does not seem like a good idea hanging off a 1/4 inch jack and maybe getting caught in something.
 
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Marketing aside 2.4ghz wireless would be a no go for me.....at least anywhere where I need wireless to work as close to 100% as possible all the time.

Somewhere I seen that form factor wireless system before under a different brand name.

That looks to be around 3 x 2 inches in size or so, to me does not seem like a good idea hanging off a 1/4 inch jack and maybe getting caught in something.
To be honest Mike I have repaired more body pack transmitter cables plus built them(all brands) Repaired from getting caught /hung, a players transmitter coming off strap or out of pocket and damaging either cable or jack. or the antenna gets damaged . I have repaired many a sennheiser xmttr. Our church can be hard on them. I own a G3 system so again I am very familiar.
I would love to find out who Fishman cloned or copied on their design. If you come up with it please post.
 
To be honest Mike I have repaired more body pack transmitter cables plus built them(all brands) Repaired from getting caught /hung, a players transmitter coming off strap or out of pocket and damaging either cable or jack. or the antenna gets damaged . I have repaired many a sennheiser xmttr. Our church can be hard on them. I own a G3 system so again I am very familiar.
I would love to find out who Fishman cloned or copied on their design. If you come up with it please post.
I repaired and made many bodypack cables as well as replaced the jacks, at least they were repairable. Break the plug out of one the plug in units and it's most likely done!
Some people are just hard on equipment and there are accidents as well.

The similar unit was Fender branded, but that still does not point to the source.
 
I repaired and made many bodypack cables as well as replaced the jacks, at least they were repairable. Break the plug out of one the plug in units and it's most likely done!
Some people are just hard on equipment and there are accidents as well.

The similar unit was Fender branded, but that still does not point to the source.
Fender Telepath system maybe?
On what I see as the pivot point possible weak link fender like others plastic. Fishman is metal the body is a polycarbonate . Sync is automatic compared to you chasing a signal and having to pair.

Again added features that I have yet to see another wireless system do .I have used it as a recording interface with zero Issues

Not sure if you watched Fishmans interview but the started R&D on getting into wireless was before early 20s.
He talked about teaming with a Canadian company. Might that be your mystery source?
 
It's still not clear to me what they mean by channels, in the Sweetwater vid he says 148 channels (2:15 in vid).
There's only 12 channels in the 2.4G band...

I agree it would be nice to define what they mean by “channel” here. This is a subject I'd generally like to understand more and get a better hold of the history of developments, but it’s a deceptively complex topic, and digging into it often leads too deep into the weeds for me.

From my armchair, internet-based understanding, I think terminology surrounding the different techs can be conflated. This is just the jumping off point but one issue is that channel can be conflated (in what is meant) with frequency easily, and this is fair because the terms can be used interchangeably in some instances. But "channel" is an abstraction of division and arrangement, not something concrete and universal. In the context of 2.4 GHz band, channels refer to decided upon divisions of frequency ranges, not individual frequencies. In wireless audio systems, channel can refer to a preset that corresponds to a specific frequency sometimes within a group/channel matrix (there's the word channel again) one of a fixed number of presets. For instance, a system with a 10x10 group/channel configuration might be marketed as having “100 channels,” though in reality, the number of tunable frequencies could be much greater if the device allows direct selection at smaller intervals. I have a system where the specs say it has 96 frequencies (8x12 group/channel matrix), but it allows direct tuning in 25 kHz steps across a 24 MHz bandwidth, so there are actually 960 selectable frequencies.

But to users, this conception of channels and frequencies is more relevant with UHF analog systems, where frequency coordination and select actual operating frequencies are in play. 2.4 GHz systems are almost exclusively (or exclusively?) digital and use adaptive frequency selection schemes. The user might select a “channel,” but if current gear even requires this, it's probably just identifying predefined frequency hopping pattern or a virtual address in the system’s logic, not a specific or fixed frequency.

So I think, as here when a manufacturer advertises “40 channels” or “148 channels” referring to a 2.4 GHz digital system, it’s probably a simplification for marketing or just meeting the audience with more digestible concepts. These figures may represent the number of unique hopping sequences or logical pairings the system supports, not fixed or selectable RF channels/frequencies in the analog sense...but again, we don't know.

I think the lack of clarity stems from analog system terminology being repurposed in digital systems. Which it makes sense to do because that's what we're used to. And because the 2.4 GHz band is constantly being pointed to as "congested," the performance of digital systems is suspect because they're being viewed as operating under the same principles and constraints as analog systems...they are not. The performance of digital systems depends largely on the efficiency of their design and algorithmic implementation. Dependence on quality of components and construction obviously isn't unique. Just because two systems are the same in that they are both using the 2.4 GHz band does not mean that they are the same and will perform the same without regard to how well their frequency hopping schemes are engineered and how robust their error correction is. And bringing analog systems into things here creates more opportunity for conflation; auto-sensing in analog systems is not the same thing as frequency hopping. Automatic frequency management in analog systems isn't and can't be dynamic...two completely different things (auto-sensing and adaptive frequency hopping).

In my view, a lot of skepticism around 2.4 GHz audio gear comes from earlier implementations...but given how rapidly this tech evolves, impressions and criticisms from even just a year ago can be sorely outdated. Yes, the 2.4 GHz band is congested...okay fine, been said over and over...and that what is being addressed with design. Evaluating the latest designs and implementations of the tech and each piece of new gear on its own merits based on its real world performance (latency, noise, dropout resistance, use with # of other RF units) seems more sensible than dismissing all 2.4 GHz gear as unusable because the 2.4 GHz band is congested or because the number of "channels" listed on the box feels low.

I got Donner CV-2 wireless XLR adapters a few months back based partly on a review that highlighted that the reviewer was having ZERO RF issues in regular gigging in one of the busiest cities in the world he believed owing to a stellar frequency hopping implementation. They are 2.4 GHz yet there is a lot to like about them. I've been using them for our 4 vocal mics in the Baltimore/Washington and surrounding area. They have been absolutely flawless for us. The documentation says that 8 can be used together, although I've also seen it as 6...evolving revisions?
 
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From my armchair, internet-based understanding, I think terminology surrounding the different techs can be conflated. This is just the jumping off point but one issue is that channel can be conflated (in what is meant) with frequency easily, and this is fair because the terms can be used interchangeably in some instances. But "channel" is an abstraction of division and arrangement, not something concrete and universal. In the context of 2.4 GHz band, channels refer to decided upon divisions of frequency ranges, not individual frequencies. In wireless audio systems, channel can refer to a preset that corresponds to a specific frequency sometimes within a group/channel matrix (there's the word channel again) one of a fixed number of presets. For instance, a system with a 10x10 group/channel configuration might be marketed as having “100 channels,” though in reality, the number of tunable frequencies could be much greater if the device allows direct selection at smaller intervals. I have a system where the specs say it has 96 frequencies (8x12 group/channel matrix), but it allows direct tuning in 25 kHz steps across a 24 MHz bandwidth, so there are actually 960 selectable frequencies.

But to users, this conception of channels and frequencies is more relevant with UHF analog systems, where frequency coordination and select actual operating frequencies are in play. 2.4 GHz systems are almost exclusively (or exclusively?) digital and use adaptive frequency selection schemes. The user might select a “channel,” but if current gear even requires this, it's probably just identifying predefined frequency hopping pattern or a virtual address in the system’s logic, not a specific or fixed frequency.

So I think, as here when a manufacturer advertises “40 channels” or “148 channels” referring to a 2.4 GHz digital system, it’s probably a simplification for marketing or just meeting the audience with more digestible concepts. These figures may represent the number of unique hopping sequences or logical pairings the system supports, not fixed or selectable RF channels/frequencies in the analog sense...but again, we don't know.

I think the lack of clarity stems from analog system terminology being repurposed in digital systems. Which it makes sense to do because that's what we're used to. And because the 2.4 GHz band is constantly being pointed to as "congested," the performance of digital systems is suspect because they're being viewed as operating under the same principles and constraints as analog systems...they are not. The performance of digital systems depends largely on the efficiency of their design and algorithmic implementation. Dependence on quality of components and construction obviously isn't unique. Just because two systems are the same in that they are both using the 2.4 GHz band does not mean that they are the same and will perform the same without regard to how well their frequency hopping schemes are engineered and how robust their error correction is. And bringing analog systems into things more opportunity for conflation auto-sensing in analog systems is not the same thing as frequency hopping. Automatic frequency management isn't and can't be dynamic...two completely different things.

In my view, a lot of skepticism around 2.4 GHz audio gear comes from earlier implementations...but given how rapidly this tech evolves, impressions and criticisms from even just a year ago can be sorely outdated. Yes, the 2.4 GHz band is congested...okay fine, been said over and over...and that what is being addressed with design. Evaluating the latest designs and implementations of the tech and each piece of new gear on its own merits based on its real world performance (latency, noise, dropout resistance, use with # of other RF units) seems more sensible than dismissing all 2.4 GHz gear as unusable because the 2.4 GHz band is congested or because the number of "channels" listed on the box feels low.

I got Donner CV-2 wireless XLR adapters a few months back based partly on a review that highlighted that the reviewer was having ZERO RF issues in regular gigging in one of the busiest cities in the world he believed owing to a stellar frequency hopping implementation. They are 2.4 GHz yet there is a lot to like about them. I've been using them for our 4 vocal mics in the Baltimore/Washington and surrounding area. They have been absolutely flawless for us. The documentation says that 8 can be used together, although I've also seen it as 6...evolving revisions?
While I agree with much of your perspective in regards to VHF, UHH or upper range ISM band range, not so with 2.4G
There are 14 "channels" allocated (globally) for 2.4G range (2400-2483.5 MHz) - each of which is spaced 5Mhz apart with a 12Mhz space before Chan 14.
We can only use 12 channels in the US because 13 has a low-power requirement that isn't worth implementing.
Channels 1, 6, and 11 are non-overlapping.
Thus, 140 "channels" with this unit likely means 2483.5 - 2400 = 83.5 Hz/140 = 0.596 Hz between "channels".
That implementation (if it's even FCC legal - I'm not an expert) would imply use of the fully allocated spectrum, even less between channels if working between 2400 -2465, which would be 0.47Hz between each.

They may have it down to a science and works great. Idk, but I'd still like to see how they allocate each channel and use the "diversity" feature to channel hop. That's probably trade secret stuff tho..

Not saying it doesn't work, but the IT guy in me likes to know at a more technical level how things work (and what I'm spending my hard earned $$ on), but not DEEP down to the EE part :)

2.4G channels splits below.


12412Commonly used for Wi-Fi
22417Commonly used for Wi-Fi
32422Commonly used for Wi-Fi
42427Commonly used for Wi-Fi
52432Commonly used for Wi-Fi
62437Commonly used for Wi-Fi
72442Commonly used for Wi-Fi
82447Commonly used for Wi-Fi
92452Commonly used for Wi-Fi
102457Commonly used for Wi-Fi
112462Commonly used for Wi-Fi
122467Limited use in North America
132472Limited use in North America
142477Used only in Japan
 
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....not so with 2.4G
There are 14 "channels" allocated (globally) for 2.4G range (2400-2483.5 MHz) - each of which is spaced 5Mhz apart with a 12Mhz space before Chan 14.
We can only use 12 channels in the US...

TL;DR: Not dismissing the technical discussion at all, but I just think potentially mixing standards or making implications without or offering conclusions or deeper understanding isn't so helpful for getting things across.


I’m truly not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful here, just trying to understand the practical implications of what you're saying...

When you mention "There are 14 "channels" allocated (globally)", "We can only use 12 channels in the US", "Channels 1, 6, and 11 are non-overlapping", "140 "channels" with this unit likely means 2483.5 - 2400 = 83.5 *M*Hz/140 = 0.596 *M*Hz between "channels"...to me, these are a mix of straight technical facts, assumptions, and theoretical implications. But I’m left wondering, what am I supposed to pick up from what you're putting down?

From a practical standpoint, when a manufacturer references something like “140 channels,” they cannot logically be referring to a scheme with 12 channels. With that I understood, I assume they’re referring to some internal scheme...maybe groups of frequency ranges? maybe tuning steps? Trying to map that directly onto IEEE Wi-Fi standards or FCC terminology feels like a bit of a mismatch, unless the device is explicitly conforming to those *channel labeling* standards.

The point about bandwidth being too narrow...I get that you’re questioning whether 596 kHz or 470 kHz per channel is viable or even legal. But then you also acknowledge you’re not sure about FCC specifics. I’m honestly not sure either, and like I said, part of me would love to understand more, but I don’t see how we can so strongly imply something is problematic if neither of us knows the technical specs well enough to support or refute that.

For example, I mentioned that I have a system with 25 kHz tuning steps. That leaves me scratching my head at the suggestion that 596 kHz spacing would necessarily be problematic, but that leaves me realizing that I don't necessarily understand how you're defining what that space is. And the implications you're making are really just in tone and semantics...without knowing the implications "...it's very stable and is designed to give 596 kHz of space between channels" and "I'm skeptical about how it can work or be legal with only 0.596 MHz of space between channels" don't give any different information but imply the opposite meaning.

Ultimately, I think we're both working with less than complete knowledge of how these 2.4 GHz audio systems actually function under the hood (it's even possible that a technical IT understanding could work against you). The difference is in how we respond to that gap. Personally, if a device works reliably, I'm less concerned with the specific RF implementation or the size of numbers without knowing what the implications are unless it directly impacts performance.

I’m definitely open to learning more if someone has deeper technical insight that can be laid out with a heavy does of layman-style language, but I don’t see the value of speculating that something might be insufficient or certainly illegal without clearer context.
 
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Today was my final Sunday morning analysis of this Airlock system.
I let my acoustic player plug in during morning rehearsal and he loved the sound from his Breedlove.
I plugged back in for our morning service and it did not disappoint.
For me it performs as advertised enough that Im selling my Sennheiser G3 system ,again for me getting the positive results with added form factor.
 
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After A couple of months of regular use of live playing the Fishman Airlock GT Wireless System has not let me down. This system is absolutely rock solid, with use on my Alembic and MTD basses. I also used it with my USA Ovation mandolin and Martin acoustic. I have put my trust that I have sold my prior system. I am using this with my anagram fly rig for my current live setup.

If you are serious about going to a bug type system that is built and sounds professional grade don't hesitate.

Here is a new video from Guitar Interactive Magazine that gets into the hard technical cable/wireless comparison . Latency and Fishman using 2.4 as an operating foundation.

 
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This is another update of the AirLock wireless system.
My worship leader who owns and was using a Sennheiser G4 Instrument wireless system., was having cable issues and I offered to test drive my Airlock system.
He was so impressed that he purchased one from Sweetwater.
Yesterday was the 1st day we had my Airlock system and my Nu X Pro B IEM system (Love that IEM SYST) and his Airlock all online. These systems yes are 2.4 GHZ but all smart frequency hopping .

I mentioned in previous review that this is a large church with a heavy wifi atmosphere.

All systems worked flawless.
 
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