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Newbie playing w/ 1 finger...

#41
JimmyM said:
Again, it's all in what you want to do. Pissing off the neighbors vs. learning to play well. The people who have learned how to play well and not learn things like chord structure and harmony, even on the most basic level, are few and far between. The vast majority of kids who don't learn rudimentary concepts of music theory never get past the subsonic experiments stage, their experiments a dismal failure from not knowing what to do next. Then their bass sits under the bed for 10 years until they sell it for cheap.

I always answer questions on here assuming that the person asking the question wants a real answer. And I always assume the person wants to get better. Pretending they're going to get good results from blindly making noise on their instruments with no clue of anything or suggesting they don't get a teacher when it's the #2 reason why most of us who are good at playing bass got there (#1 is a good work ethic) isn't going to help a person get better.

I think the thing that bothers me most is it seems like you're separating the concepts of having fun vs. working. I think working to achieve a goal and achieving it is the most fun you can have. Believe me...I have a whole lot more fun with the bass now, being able to play it well and do most of the things I want to do with it, than I ever had when I was just aimlessly whacking at it. And I had a lot of fun working at it...I learned things in my lessons that I was able to apply to the music I REALLY liked, and I got better and better and more skilled and had even more fun.

So I could never tell a kid just to go bang on the bass for a year or just have fun with it and not worry about notes or structure because it's way more fun to be good at it. Kids don't need to be told to just go bang on a bass. They'll do that anyway. They need to be told that there's a whole new world of expression in that bass if they're willing to put in a little effort in finding it.
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This whole thing is pointless. I like your style.
 
#44
jamerson.jpg
 
#45
DogPlaysBass said:
Not true. The point is that when you start you should learn to play what you already know you love.

There is nothing wrong with learning prog or jazz, if that is what you love. There is nothing wrong with having someone show you new styles you may not have heard to expand you musical horizons.

However, when you first start to play, it should be the most fun experience you could ever imagine. Your first week is not the time for someone to say "if you really want to be a good bass player, you have to study for years, learn to read, learn theory, walk a solid line, and build a solid catalog of songs you can play start to finish". That comes later. The first thing to say to someone when the get their bass is "PLAY! HAVE FUN!" That's it. Turn up your amp as loud as it can go and piss off the neighbors.

The best advice when you start is to follow your heart. If you want to play AC/DC, play AC/DC!!! If you want to learn bepop, don't stop until you learn bepop. If you want to get a bunch of pedals and make strange noises then that is what you should do. Playing music should be about freedom, not a bunch of rules. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

Teachers who get new students and say "congratulations, here is a bunch of stuff to struggle with" really do a disservice to their students. When I teach, I ask "what is your favorite song in the world??" Why would you start any other way?
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i dunno if i could take that outlook. i never wanted to learn songs from my teachers... i wanted to know all the other stuff. scales, warm-ups, everything. i taught myself though. so far, it's served me well. i took 1 guitar lesson (i've played drums for 11 years, and guitar for 7. i just recently started playing bass because a friend's band needed a bass player.) and the guy wanted to know what song i wanted to learn. i told him i wasn't paying him for lessons to learn songs i can learn online with guitar tabs. having this outlook in teaching is not right. i can learn songs for free, i can't learn theory without help.

just my 2 cents:)
 
#46
DogPlaysBass said:
HA. First time anyone has called me a hippie. I have definitely been called worse things.

You ever tried to play Disposable Heroes by Metallica? Two fingers all the way. It's a bitch.
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Nope, can't say I have. Never was much of a fan. Good band but they're a bit of a sausage fest. They needed a song or two about chicks. Even Sabbath had a couple ;)
 
#47
slackinatthebas said:
i dunno if i could take that outlook. i never wanted to learn songs from my teachers... i wanted to know all the other stuff. scales, warm-ups, everything. i taught myself though. so far, it's served me well. i took 1 guitar lesson (i've played drums for 11 years, and guitar for 7. i just recently started playing bass because a friend's band needed a bass player.) and the guy wanted to know what song i wanted to learn. i told him i wasn't paying him for lessons to learn songs i can learn online with guitar tabs. having this outlook in teaching is not right. i can learn songs for free, i can't learn theory without help.

just my 2 cents:)
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You are missing the point. The point is not that I sit down and say "let me teach you some songs." I ask what their favorite song in the world is just to understand their taste in music. The point is that I sit down with the student and find out the reason they started to play, and try to find out where that passion comes from. Then I try to teach them something in line with that. I don't just say "all good bass players need to do this this and this." Some students will never understand theory. Some will never be able to slap. Some will never be able to play without a pick. Every student is unique and there is no cut and dry system. There is no 'must' that all students need, except to be encouraged to play what they enjoy.
 
#49
DogPlaysBass said:
You are missing the point. The point is not that I sit down and say "let me teach you some songs." I ask what their favorite song in the world is just to understand their taste in music. The point is that I sit down with the student and find out the reason they started to play, and try to find out where that passion comes from. Then I try to teach them something in line with that. I don't just say "all good bass players need to do this this and this." Some students will never understand theory. Some will never be able to slap. Some will never be able to play without a pick. Every student is unique and there is no cut and dry system. There is no 'must' that all students need, except to be encouraged to play what they enjoy.
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You're doing your students a disservice by that kind of attitude. Your student isn't the one qualified to decide what they're capable of. YOU are supposed to be the one who decides that. Any kid playing clarinet in the junior high band class can learn how to read music. They can understand concepts of theory if you're good at explaining it. Some, I've heard, can actually play with both a pick AND fingers!

What you're doing is something I call "mall teaching." That's letting the student dictate the pace of the lesson to placate them. Keeps kids coming back, but doesn't really do them much good. I dictate the lesson. I am the teacher. A student tells me he can't play with his fingers? Welp, he's going to learn it now. A kid says he can't read music? I'm going to show him that he can understand how to read music with just a couple minutes of study per day, then they can go back to headbanging the rest of the time. A student says he's not interested in theory? Well, you can't make kids study things they don't want to study, but when you show them how much easier it is to relate to their favorite songs as well as write their own songs and basslines when they know theory, many of them perk up and actually put effort into it.

Pointless, you say? Hey, we're all going to die. But this system for learning and teaching music has been around for centuries before we existed and it will outlast all of us. It's been tweaked out long ago and it works for everyone who learns it. Don't underestimate your students and let them tell you they can't do something. My teachers never let me get away with it, and I won't let my students get away with it...that is, if I had students right now. Gigging is taking up too much of my time lately.

But you are absolutely right on the money about Sabbath...first 6 albums...that's it...best dark metal in history!
 
#50
Id go and try to improve your technique using two fingers. Youll have more versatility depending on the music you want to play. Also youll be able to play faster. But James Jamerson played with only finger and was one of the best bass player of its time.

2 fingers, practice alternating. Id start doing a CMaj7 in appergios going all the way down you neck to pratice alternating : C E G B C E G B C E G B C E G C Db F Ab C e.tc
 
#51
I want someday to become a teacher, and teach bass. This is actually what I want with my life. I haven't begun the education, but in my opinion there has to be some requirements of the student. There is a thin line between requirement/fundamental approach and to the self-expression train-of-thought. What I'm getting at is that if you have students who doesn't really care all that much about the "classic" aspects of bass, say, two-fingers, non-pick approach, you should still encourage that student to play with his fingers, even if he is reluctant to it at first. When you're starting out, it's a different story - you haven't yet had a real "preference" when it comes to your way of doing things. I think it's important that you find your voice with the instrument - play it your way! Try out all the approaches you can find. That way I think your overall enjoyment will increase greatly. :)

Good luck!
 
#52
JimmyM said:
You're doing your students a disservice by that kind of attitude. Your student isn't the one qualified to decide what they're capable of. YOU are supposed to be the one who decides that. Any kid playing clarinet in the junior high band class can learn how to read music. They can understand concepts of theory if you're good at explaining it. Some, I've heard, can actually play with both a pick AND fingers!

What you're doing is something I call "mall teaching." That's letting the student dictate the pace of the lesson to placate them. Keeps kids coming back, but doesn't really do them much good. I dictate the lesson. I am the teacher. A student tells me he can't play with his fingers? Welp, he's going to learn it now. A kid says he can't read music? I'm going to show him that he can understand how to read music with just a couple minutes of study per day, then they can go back to headbanging the rest of the time. A student says he's not interested in theory? Well, you can't make kids study things they don't want to study, but when you show them how much easier it is to relate to their favorite songs as well as write their own songs and basslines when they know theory, many of them perk up and actually put effort into it.

Pointless, you say? Hey, we're all going to die. But this system for learning and teaching music has been around for centuries before we existed and it will outlast all of us. It's been tweaked out long ago and it works for everyone who learns it. Don't underestimate your students and let them tell you they can't do something. My teachers never let me get away with it, and I won't let my students get away with it...that is, if I had students right now. Gigging is taking up too much of my time lately.

But you are absolutely right on the money about Sabbath...first 6 albums...that's it...best dark metal in history!
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This is becoming absurd. I understand why wars happen.

Come on Jimmy we can get through this. My students don't dictate the lessons. However, their backgrounds and reasons for wanting to play definitely dictate how I decide to teach them. My point is that no set method will work with each student. They are all unique and there is no one thing they all 'must' learn.

Some people will never understand calculus, some people will never understand music theory. Most will be able to get it eventually, some never will.

Realize too that I agree with everything you are saying. All I ever said was that when I get a student I don't swarm them with everything they need to know to be a 'good bass player' at first. AT FIRST! You think I sit and ask about their favorite songs for three months? I teach many students theory and harmony, I just make sure that they see bass as something that is extremely fun before I get into it.

Mall teaching? I guess you have to get your digs. I have been fired for telling students not to come back. I find your thought process intriguing. You seem to latch onto one idea, and then build assumptions around it that you can disagree with. Add to that something that is not quite an insult but just enough to be unsettling. Happens in every post you make. "spoken like someone ... jazz can do for your rock playing" "hippie" "sausage fest" "mall teaching". You have the perfect formula for never ending forum battles. I wonder if you converse with everyone like this. Tough guy! I like your style!

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is probably my favorite. I love them all, and I know that one isn't the darkest or heaviest, but it is my favorite.
 
#53
Maybe it's just the way you're explaining what you do that I'm not getting. Like from your keyboard to my brain, there's something getting dropped along the way. I'd like to think it's you not explaining what you mean very well, but it could be I'm just not connecting to it.

Anyway, as long as we agree that it can't be all fun and games all the time, I guess that's what counts. Fair enough. Me, I'm a first-album/Paranoid guy but Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is probably my next favorite after those.
 
#54
JimmyM said:
Maybe it's just the way you're explaining what you do that I'm not getting. Like from your keyboard to my brain, there's something getting dropped along the way. I'd like to think it's you not explaining what you mean very well, but it could be I'm just not connecting to it.

Anyway, as long as we agree that it can't be all fun and games all the time, I guess that's what counts. Fair enough. Me, I'm a first-album/Paranoid guy but Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is probably my next favorite after those.
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Goes in cycles for me, though I always seem to come back to Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. I generally consider the song Black Sabbath to be the heaviest beast that will ever exist.
 
#55
Every finger-style player should develop a strong 2-finger technique but there are many situations where 1 finger sounds best. Geddy Lee, JP Jones and Jack Bruce often play with only 1 finger. I'm amazed at their economy of motion. They do play with 2 fingers but only when needed.
animal52 said:
While I think that two is probably better, I'll go ahead and play devil's advocate for a second... Tim C. (of rage/audioslave) plays mostly with one finger. I believe his reasoning is that it results in more consistent timing. Works well for his style of music, but I can't see that working if you're thinking of playing faster/trickier basslines.

You could always try playing with a pick if your not digging the fingerstyle.
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#56
That's very true. John, Paul and George, although they weren't formally trained and down-played their understanding, all had a strong interest in chords and how to use them (harmony). By hook or crook, they got into theory. From the beginning they did that and later picked George Martin's brain though they delighted in breaking the "rules".
JimmyM said:
Slight correction...Paul knows TONS about music theory. He just doesn't know how to read music. But he knows every note and chord he's playing and how it relates to the song.
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#60
Pretty cool discussion.

IMO, it's fine to use one finger. But, that cannot be your only right hand technique, so +1 to everyone who brought that up. If you can use any combination of all five fingers plucking, striking, tapping, etc. and you decide to play a bassline with one finger, you do that because it fits musically. Every right hand technique has a different attack, and you should select a right hand technique that fits the piece you are doing.

A good way to develop the motor skills and coordination you are lacking is to apply it to another instrument. A piano/keyboard is probably the best (for me anyway) and I recently had a cajon made (check one of these out if you haven't. If you want to get one I know someone who makes what are probably the best ones out there, and they aren't too expensive), which has really opened up my bass playing. It's basically a percussive box you sit on and tap with all 10 fingers. Really made me re-define what was possible with my right hand technique.

I've been working on a one finger technique that basically uses the tip of my index finger as a pick. I actually grab my index finger with my middle finger and thumb. It's got a really cool dual attack (fingertip vs. nail) that gives a lot of freedom to accent chosen notes.

If anyone tries (or has already invented/learned) this technique, do you have any advice?

Anyway, don't try to be a one finger only bass player. You have ten (except maybe some of you carpenters out there!), use 'em.


"why do they call'em fingers? You never see'em fing."
-Otto the bus driver
 

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