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Newbie question- Ampeg B15N

BOT- thanks for the PT and OT recommendations. The NC and N schematics both show PT-108 so I'll assumed that NF uses it also. I don't have enough electronics theory to understand how the 375 volts from the PT ends up as 430 on the plates, though, and I'm guessing that using fixed bias will boost the plate voltage a little.

Mark- it's interesting to see how much variation there was in the electronics and cabinets of the B15 series and how unregimented production was. BTW- that center support for the grille cloth- is it about 1.25"?
 
BTW- that center support for the grille cloth- is it about 1.25"?
You know, early on that was one of the dimensions I had to come up with on my own. At the time all I had to reference was a single baffle cabinet. I assumed it would be about the same size as was used on the double baffle cabinet. It turns out I was wrong. The bar on the single baffle is 1.25" wide and the bar on the double baffle is .875" wide (with a 13.5" dia. cutout). With assumptions like that, maybe I could go to work for Ampeg!
 
BOT- thanks for the PT and OT recommendations. The NC and N schematics both show PT-108 so I'll assumed that NF uses it also. I don't have enough electronics theory to understand how the 375 volts from the PT ends up as 430 on the plates, though, and I'm guessing that using fixed bias will boost the plate voltage a little.

Here is a pointer to a B-15NF (dated 4-65) schematic that shows the transformer part numbers and circuit voltages (http://ricecustomguitars.com/random/Ampeg.JPG).

The NF uses the PT-108 and and OT-208 transformers. I don't have a spec on the OT-208. The OT-214 that I referred to in an earlier post was used in the slightly higher power B15N's produced beginning in 68.

The 375 volt transformer spec is AC RMS volts. For a wall voltage, V peak = V RMS X 1.4142 = 375 X 1.4142 = 530V. The voltage on the plates is not AC but rather DC volts after rectification and filtering. It's complicated.


David
 
Mark- Thanks for the spec on the grille support; sounds like your knowledge of the B15 cabs was pretty hard- won.
Dave- thanks for the pic of the schematic. I really don't have much of a theoretical background- I just try and ID parts, follow the schematic and try to do a decent job of soldering and lead dress. So the peak voltage gets filtered and it comes out around 430?
 
Mark- One of the pictures I've got of the inside of a B15 cab shows 4 triangular blocks of wood between the inside of the speaker baffle and the sides of the cab. Are those original or something added by somebody later on?
 
Mark- One of the pictures I've got of the inside of a B15 cab shows 4 triangular blocks of wood between the inside of the speaker baffle and the sides of the cab. Are those original or something added by somebody later on?
They're original. My 64 cab has them...just checked. Extra bracing.
 
Dave- thanks for the pic of the schematic. I really don't have much of a theoretical background- I just try and ID parts, follow the schematic and try to do a decent job of soldering and lead dress. So the peak voltage gets filtered and it comes out around 430?

Well, a sine wave voltage is rectified and filtered to produce a 430 V DC voltage that is used in the power section of the amp. If you build the NF and use a new old stock 5AR4 and your wall voltage is 117 VAC you'll come out in that ballpark. If you have 120VAC or higher as many areas do, and you use diodes for rectification, or even a modern 5AR4, your voltage is going to be higher. You can always adjust the voltages in the circuit as you go to suit your taste.

It is important to do your homework before you start ordering parts.

Theory is one thing but there is no substitute for grabbing a bag of resistors and a soldering iron and seeing what happens. It is the best way to learn.

TB has a FAQ that has some good advice on learning about amps (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=523085). A kit is one place to start. As an alternative, see my posting (#17) about starting with something like an HP-200CD tube based oscillator and building an amp by modifying it. It's a lot less expensive than cutting your teeth building a B-15NF.


David
 
Mark- One of the pictures I've got of the inside of a B15 cab shows 4 triangular blocks of wood between the inside of the speaker baffle and the sides of the cab. Are those original or something added by somebody later on?
As Jimmy already mentioned, they are original. They are glue blocks used to help support the speaker baffle.
 
BOT- I've had some previous experience w/ guitar amps. I rebuilt a 74' Twin Reverb (caps, resistors, Black Face mods & cabinet) and I've also ripped the guts out of a Peavey Classic 30 and did a point-to-point AC 30(w/ 5AR4 & choke) Top Boost circuit. I ran into the increased voltage problem w/ the AC 30 circuit- the plate volts came out at about 360 instead of 300 but so far the EL 84's take it w/o red plating. The line voltage here is about 121-122. But I will admit this project is a more ambitious undertaking.
I was looking at the Hammond 1650F OT in the AES catalog and it said it's rating is 25W. I thought the B15 NF would put out more power than that w/ two 6L6's in Fixed bias.
 
Hammond transformer specs are very conservative. The transformer can handle 30W without breaking a sweat. Stepping up to a larger transformer like a 40W Hammond 1650H would work as well. The extra iron isn't a problem.

There are tradeoffs between the 1650H and the 1650F. The higher impedance generally produces less distortion and less output power; the heavier iron generally helps attain a better low end. Using the ultralinear tap would also lower distortion. You would have to try both to see what the effects would be.

You might find this useful (http://amps.zugster.net/articles/tone-stacks). It shows you how to wire the baxandall circuit on the tone controls and a simple modification for a mid boost.


David
 
I've heard people talk about the Baxandall tone stack but I've never boned up on it myself. Is that the kind of tone stack in the B15's that are mounted on the back of the pots?
The ultra- linear tap is for the screen supply b/c it's @ 40%? It's another concept that I haven't investigated.
Inre OT's I read that comment of Jess Oliver's about reconing 8 ohm speakers as 4 ohm in order to drive the power tubes to saturation sooner. Seems like you could get the same effect by running an 8 ohm speaker off the 16 ohm tap.
 
I've heard people talk about the Baxandall tone stack but I've never boned up on it myself. Is that the kind of tone stack in the B15's that are mounted on the back of the pots?
The ultra- linear tap is for the screen supply b/c it's @ 40%? It's another concept that I haven't investigated.
Inre OT's I read that comment of Jess Oliver's about reconing 8 ohm speakers as 4 ohm in order to drive the power tubes to saturation sooner. Seems like you could get the same effect by running an 8 ohm speaker off the 16 ohm tap.

The tone circuit is often referred to as a Baxandall. When you put a tone control in an amp, some of the signal is lost. The baxandall control network is an active circuit that compensates somewhat for insertion loss of the tone network. A passive baxandall circuit is called a James circuit. This is what you find in the NF schematic. The purpose of the Mosfet is to help compensate for the insertion loss. The advantage of the Baxandall/James circuit is that the insertion loss is not as great as that found in other tone circuits such as the Fender stack. Because of this you probably don't need the Mosfet. On the other hand, it costs you almost nothing to try it and see what happens. That's the great thing about building a testbed amp. Once you have the basic circuit in place you can try all kinds of interesting things and see what happens. When I'm designing an amp and I'm at the stage of voicing it, I'll sit there all day clipping in and out all kind of different component values to get just the tone that I want.

The module that Ampeg used in their B15's was made by P.E.C. Six components encapsulated in plastic. It was a common component in TV's, Hi-Fi's and radio's at the time. You see them on ebay sometimes but it would be better to build your own mounted on the pots. I've heard reports that replacing the PEC module with discrete components makes the amps sound better. The component values within the old modules sometimes drift with time. I suspect that most of the time the differences are subtle. But sometimes that's all you need to make the amp sound better. The PEC modules used ceramic capacitors. These capacitors tend to have a relatively lower inductance than other types of capacitors. I don't think that this would affect the tone but you never know.

The ultralinear output configurations were used in a lot of amps. More so in hi-fi where a clean undistorted output was desired. This is a good thing in a bass amp if you don't want distortion. I used to have a 135W Fender Twin Reverb made in the 70's. I liked it a lot for guitar and just as a head for bass. Although it did distort when pushed, it was very clean and cut through well. You can see the Beatles using this model in the Let it Be roof top concert.

The output transformer acts like a multiplier that matches the impedance of the tube output to the impedance of the speaker. If the tube output impedance is 6K ohms and the speaker is 8 ohms, you would use a 6K:8 ohm transformer to properly match the impedances. If you connect a 4 ohm speaker to the 8 ohm tap (or an 8 ohm speaker to a 16 ohm tap which is the same thing) the primary side of the transformer will be cut in half to 3K. The tubes want to see 6K:8, they are presented with 3K:4. A mismatch. The amp will strain the tubes making them not last as long in putting out more power, it will distort more, and the transformer will run hotter because more current is going through it. With some amps this isn't a problem and you can get away with doing it. On other amps it leads to problems. It depends if the transformer can take the higher current. It used to work fine on the older Fender amps. In general, it isn't a good thing to do. If you try it and it works and you like the sound, no problem. That's the great thing about these old tube amps.


David