Time for a Spring cleaning
I'd love to hear your take on this setup UT. Whoevers got UncleToads stuff, please give it back so he can dig what Jeremy's talkin about.
or just send it to me so I can try it for myself!!!
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Double Bass NO MORE "BASS" AMPS!
- Thread starter nodnarb
- Start date
Time for a Spring cleaning
I'd love to hear your take on this setup UT. Whoevers got UncleToads stuff, please give it back so he can dig what Jeremy's talkin about.
or just send it to me so I can try it for myself!!!
Thanks to the generosity of Mr. Allen, I was able to borrow the TD-100 under discussion in this thread and mess around with it for about 45 minutes yesterday. It had some interesting characteristics. The impedance control produces an interesting variety of tones from the pickup, and the "tubey goodness" knob does as well. In addition, there is a curious relationship between the two. I couldn't tell too much difference between plugging the tube output into the front end of the AI Focus and plugging it into the effects return, with the possible exception that when i plug it into the effects return, I don't have any EQ options if I don't like the way it sounds exactly.
While I liked some of the presence that the unit added, I found that the "tubey goodness" knob added definition and string noise to the sound, and my acoustic tone, which is kind of modern with the Dominants anyway, didn't need any help in those areas. I ended up not taking it to the gig last night, as I didn't want to be twiddling knobs instead of playing.
What I noticed while listening to Jeremy play at his gig was that his sound was rich and full, and with plenty of definition. My first thought was that the amplified sound was a lot stronger in the low mids (around 200 hz) than what I'm used to, and I commented on this on the break. When I asked Jeremy to play for a minute acoustically, I discovered why this was: His bass, an old German canon with about a 72 inch string length, has exactly that same sound, and acoustically, that built in "thump" kind of overshadows the attack more than the same frequency does on my bass. So for his setup, the "tubey goodness" control added something that enhanced the sound on the front end of the note. His amplified sound with the Summit/Berg setup was a great old school presence - round and full, and sat just right in the mix. On my bass, that added presence on the front end of the note comes out as added string noise that I was always trying to EQ out.
More later...
While I liked some of the presence that the unit added, I found that the "tubey goodness" knob added definition and string noise to the sound, and my acoustic tone, which is kind of modern with the Dominants anyway, didn't need any help in those areas. I ended up not taking it to the gig last night, as I didn't want to be twiddling knobs instead of playing.
What I noticed while listening to Jeremy play at his gig was that his sound was rich and full, and with plenty of definition. My first thought was that the amplified sound was a lot stronger in the low mids (around 200 hz) than what I'm used to, and I commented on this on the break. When I asked Jeremy to play for a minute acoustically, I discovered why this was: His bass, an old German canon with about a 72 inch string length, has exactly that same sound, and acoustically, that built in "thump" kind of overshadows the attack more than the same frequency does on my bass. So for his setup, the "tubey goodness" control added something that enhanced the sound on the front end of the note. His amplified sound with the Summit/Berg setup was a great old school presence - round and full, and sat just right in the mix. On my bass, that added presence on the front end of the note comes out as added string noise that I was always trying to EQ out.
More later...
Oh man, I had the perfect sound last night even without the TD-100--I played with no amp. It was like "my bass, only exactly as loud!"
Chris, where did you have the impedance knob set when you were getting too much string noise? When I play BG with the Summit, I put it pretty low (9 o'clock, say) when I want to get rid of the bright Marcus Miller thing in favor of the dark Jaco thing. I've noticed a similar effect with the double bass, although having the impedance too low kind of makes it just sound like an old Polytone with the treble rolled all the way off.
Chris, where did you have the impedance knob set when you were getting too much string noise? When I play BG with the Summit, I put it pretty low (9 o'clock, say) when I want to get rid of the bright Marcus Miller thing in favor of the dark Jaco thing. I've noticed a similar effect with the double bass, although having the impedance too low kind of makes it just sound like an old Polytone with the treble rolled all the way off.
The sweet spot on the impedance knob seemed to be somewhere between 9 and 10 o'clock. Too low, and the sound was too thin; too high, and it was too fat.
I can dig it about the unamplified thing. I've played a couple of gigs recently where I didn't need an amp, but where I was able to set up in a corner. Perfect!
I can dig it about the unamplified thing. I've played a couple of gigs recently where I didn't need an amp, but where I was able to set up in a corner. Perfect!
Link Removed from that gig Chris was talking about. I literally just recorded the sound of the speaker cabinet, so the band sounds faint around the edges and what you're hearing has almost none of the acoustic sound of the bass in it. Not sure how useful it is, but it may give you a sense of the tone of the Summit and IP112 (Full Circle PU).
- May 6, 2003
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- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
I'm digging that.
Is that Weichs too? I can't remember what you are using these days.
- May 6, 2003
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- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
They were borrowed. I had to do some phone calling to find them. Bastard just had them sitting in his basement, didn't bother to return them after he'd had his fun.
Don't you hate that.
I'll have them back sometime soon.
Chris, no nuts, didn't wanna take the thing on the gig. Comon...take one for the team man....
Very nice thanks for doing that. Man cool gig with a vibes player, just not common in my parts these days. Great playing.
- May 6, 2003
- 5,272
- 160
- 64
- Disclosures
- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
After some more experimentation, I'd like to add a few more pennies worth of thought into the TD-100 discussion:
1) Actually, I like the sound of the line out just fine going into the (XLR) in on the front of the Focus. As long as I set the input gain on that channel nice and low, it doesn't sound "AI" anymore to my poor hillwilliam ears. Plus, I still have the EQ to roll off, which I have to do a bit more of than when I simply use the AI preamp.
2) The impedance sounds best to me between 9 and 11 o'clock. Above that, and it's too fat and gooey.
3) The "tubey goodness" (output) knob had me flummoxed for a while. On the one hand, it's kind of cool when the little green light flashes every time you play a quarter note. On the other, I have to turn the knob up almost all the way to get that to happen (and though I be a "girly man" in many ways, I've been told that my RH technique is not lacking in "string abuse quotient", so that's not the issue), and the sound at those settings was a little too processed sounding, and sometimes bordered on overdrive.
4) Taking the above into account, the "tubey goodness" knob also acts as a bit of a tone control as well. When it's set at high noon or below, the sound is really beautiful and relaxed. Past noon, it starts to get zingier and punchier, which I don't really dig as much when playing alone. We'll see what happens on the gig.
Speaking of which, I've got a nice casual trio gig on Saturday night in one of the most notoriously difficult rooms to find a bass sound in that the 'Ville has to offer. The TD-100 will be accompanying me to it. I'll blab further after that.
That clip is pretty accurate (I was there up front for that tune), but what it can't convey is the nice way your bass was sitting in the mix. That sound isn't my sound, but it's a damn fine sound and sat *perfectly* in the mix, which was what impressed me. Often that old school kind of vibe gets buried, but yours didn't.
Yea I got into the Avalon to get away from the gooey tubyness that was present in the Demeter tube direct I was using before, I think that the Avalon has a kind of simplicity (2 useul eq curves) and a gain knob that i like.And that great 3D sound(no other way to put it)
After two nights with the unit out on very different gigs, I stand by my initial impressions: the TD-100 is cool, but not for me. If you've got a naturally dark, old-school kind of sound and are looking to add a little punch and maybe sustain, it would be a great choice. If you have a more modern steel sound and usually use EQ to tame it, it's probably going to create as many issues as it solves (at least it did in my case). Still may try out the Avalon at some point if I get lucky.
Chris, were you running it into the front end of the AI so you could use the EQ, or straight into the power amp (which could be done either without the tube stage, i.e. from the direct out, or with the tube stage, from the line out)? If the former, I know that you said you didn't hear a big degradation in the sound of the TD-100, but it's also a situation where I imagine one would be just as well off plugging straight into the AI.
One thing about all this stuff, and something that's been discussed at length on the BG side, is that these gadgets are for a particular thing and you start getting into trouble when you ask too much of them. So, for example, when people rave about using the U5 as a preamp but complain about it not having a flexible enough EQ section, the answer of course is that it's a direct box and should be used as such. Same thing for the TD-100; I'm using it because I just want a super high-quality sound going into my amplifier, and to me the sound quality is in a different league from what any intergrated amplifier has given me (same experience as I had with the U5). I like EQ options, of course, but for DB I guess I've been fairly happy foregoing them. At that gig Chris heard (the one I posted the recording from), I would have thought from the stage that there was way too much bass going on, but apparently it sounded fine. At another gig with the same rig, I thought there wasn't nearly enough low end and I would have been cranking it up had I the option, but afterwards a fellow bassist gushed about the perfectness of he amplified sound.
I guess I'm regarding it as another point in the line of just getting quality gear (get a bass, settle on some strings, settle on an amp) and then making the tone happen with the fingers. I always felt like whatever amp I was using was impeding me in doing this, but I don't feel like that with the Summit (and I didn't feel like that with the U5). And down the road, if I want to slap some EQ on the other end of it, I can do so and still be under half the price of an AI Focus. I also have this thing that just came in the mail last week, a Read Purity tube preamp, and from my initial fiddling it sounds better than the Summit Audio gear and has a Jensen DI and an EQ section as well, so who knows, that may be the best of both worlds.
Chris, I do think you would enjoy the U5; there's certainly nothing remotely tube-y about it, and between the six presets and the high-cut filter you can get a lot of goodness out of it. Until the Summit came along, the U5 had set the bar for me, and the difference between the two units is really one of preference and not of a difference in quality.
One thing about all this stuff, and something that's been discussed at length on the BG side, is that these gadgets are for a particular thing and you start getting into trouble when you ask too much of them. So, for example, when people rave about using the U5 as a preamp but complain about it not having a flexible enough EQ section, the answer of course is that it's a direct box and should be used as such. Same thing for the TD-100; I'm using it because I just want a super high-quality sound going into my amplifier, and to me the sound quality is in a different league from what any intergrated amplifier has given me (same experience as I had with the U5). I like EQ options, of course, but for DB I guess I've been fairly happy foregoing them. At that gig Chris heard (the one I posted the recording from), I would have thought from the stage that there was way too much bass going on, but apparently it sounded fine. At another gig with the same rig, I thought there wasn't nearly enough low end and I would have been cranking it up had I the option, but afterwards a fellow bassist gushed about the perfectness of he amplified sound.
I guess I'm regarding it as another point in the line of just getting quality gear (get a bass, settle on some strings, settle on an amp) and then making the tone happen with the fingers. I always felt like whatever amp I was using was impeding me in doing this, but I don't feel like that with the Summit (and I didn't feel like that with the U5). And down the road, if I want to slap some EQ on the other end of it, I can do so and still be under half the price of an AI Focus. I also have this thing that just came in the mail last week, a Read Purity tube preamp, and from my initial fiddling it sounds better than the Summit Audio gear and has a Jensen DI and an EQ section as well, so who knows, that may be the best of both worlds.
Chris, I do think you would enjoy the U5; there's certainly nothing remotely tube-y about it, and between the six presets and the high-cut filter you can get a lot of goodness out of it. Until the Summit came along, the U5 had set the bar for me, and the difference between the two units is really one of preference and not of a difference in quality.
So heres my question/observation:
I DO like the TD-100, but its a little tricky
As Chris has commented, to get the initial gain up to a level that you are actually USING the tube stage, makes the signal from the line out too hot to use in front of most amps? (and sometimes too hot to FOH!)
If you use the direct out, you are bypassing the tube stage to your amp (I realize Jeremy is using it slightly differently )
Comments from those smarter than me ?
I DO like the TD-100, but its a little tricky
As Chris has commented, to get the initial gain up to a level that you are actually USING the tube stage, makes the signal from the line out too hot to use in front of most amps? (and sometimes too hot to FOH!)
If you use the direct out, you are bypassing the tube stage to your amp (I realize Jeremy is using it slightly differently )
Comments from those smarter than me ?
I was running an XLR out into the XLR in on the front of the AI preamp, so I could use both the Tubey goodness knob and the variable impedance. When I tried it straight into the FX return, there were too many highs, mids, and string noise to be usable for me.
Having played both of our basses, it all kind of makes sense. Your bass sounds fat, dark, and punchy in the low mids, with a ton of old school 200hz-ish KAPOW (please pardon my technical jargon) to each note. The sustain dies away quickly as compared to the initial attack. My bass is leaner sounding, brighter, and more articulate with looooooong sustain that doesn't get overshadowed by the attack. The KAPOW ZONE on Tereza (that's my girl!) is more in the 800-1000 hz range, making her sound more like a modern girl (makes sense, since she's only about 8 years old); when combined with the tubey goodness knob straight into the FX return, it sounds like Ron Carter in "State of the Tenor", and I'm left with no EQ options to darken it with.
And for what you're going for, it *was* perfect. OTOH, if I played my bass my way and that sound came out, I'd start freaking out! It's kind of like personal preferences driving different cars. To me, your bass feels like a Cadillac (one of the old ones that were really good and plush). Turn the wheel on it, and it makes a beautiful, smooth, swooping turn that feels solid as a mother****** and doesn't spill anybody's drink. It's also got a ****load of power, always plenty in reserve. My bass, by comparison, feels extremely tight, like a hotrodded Honda that sits about 5 inches off the ground. The ride (feel) is stiff and kind of bumpy, reproducing every single thing (road noise) that I do immediately; the tradeoff is that if you even look at the wheel sideways, the car swerves instantly in that direction. (...and my wife gets a face full of the coffee that she unfortunately raised to her lips at that moment, and I get back in the doghouse.
) Seriosuly, though, I *like* the feeling of being 5 inches off the ground with a stiff suspension and no power steering and being able to stop and/or turn on a dime.Our strings and string heights are very similar (spiros/dominants, at about the same height), but the basses feel completely different, which is as it should be. I'm also extra glad I don't have your expensive tastes in either (analogical)cars or basses, since I couldn't afford either.
All of that to say that I loved the sound of what the TD 100 did to your bass, but for my bass it just seemed to add a lot of stuff that I usually try to tone down anyway.
I hear you. It's a whole can of worms, but what i notice is that pickups that are faithful to the original sound (I think the FC is pretty faithful) sound great at lower volumes. As they are amplified louder, though, certain frequencies tend to get out of balance - namely the gooey lows and the glassy string noise of the highs. In other words, if you sit up close to my bass, you'll hear booming lows and crisp string noise allong with the "meat" of the sound. Step back a few feet, and those things attenuate. 15' away, and you're pretty much hearing mostly the "meat" or "heart" of the sound. I want to have the EQ options to tame the stuff that doesn't sound natural to me as the volume goes up. Maybe I coulda done that with the Summit, but i couldn't find the range on the gigs i played. I was actually kind of relieved not to be gassing for another expensive gadget!
Looking forward to hearing you on it!
I'm looking forward to trying one. I may be able to review one for the BG mag articles. If I do, you can count on me sharing in a very verbose manner.
Well, I'm not smarter than you, and I haven't used this as much...but: I would think the line out would always be too hot for the FOH, because the FOH wants the mic level signal (the XLR output) and not the balanced line level (1/4" out). Have you had problems being too hot into the FOH when using this as a DI from the mic level out? And even with the soundguy using a -20dB pad on that channel?
When I plug the Full Circle into the TD-100, I have to use every bit of the 26dB of tube output gain to get the green lights to flash. (Although, when I'm really thrashing it--I guess I am becoming "old school" like Chris said, much to my surprise--the red light comes on.) When I plug an active BG into it, this isn't the case at all, and it's pretty easy to overdrive the tube output when you crank the gain up (like actual intentional distortion, which apparently some people like). But the thing I've found is that I don't really care much about the tube character of the sound; it's really just the signal level I'm interested in when I crank up the tube output gain. Maybe I'll figure it out further on down the road; I do know that the different sonic features with various combinations of solid state input and tube output on the 2BA-221 are striking (and all are very delicious).
I've assumed that the way you're supposed to use this is that the tube output gain is important to the tone of the unit and plays a big role when you use the TD-100 as either a direct box (via the mic level out, for recording or for live stuff) or as a standalone preamp (via the balanced line out, which provides the right output voltage for all power amplifiers except, of course, the one on the IP112, for which it is too hot); and then, to use the box as a DI for the FOH but also to send a signal to the front end of your integrated amplifier, you should use the direct out on the front of the TD-100 (which does not involve the tube stage, but which is affected by the impedance control and the whatever-it-is goodness inside the box). The idea being, you've already got a preamp (tube or otherwise) and a tone-shaping section on your amplifier and it would be redundant and too hot to use the tube output stage into another preamplifier stage.
If you wanted to run the TD100 into, say, an AI head, and you wanted to use the tube output stage, you could either send the mic level out into the AI combo jack input (which means you couldn't use the TD100 as a DI, but you could use the DI on the AI) and the levels would be groovy, or you could send the balanced line out into the effects return and therefore just use the power amp on the AI; the effects level control is then basically an attenuator for the signal going into the power amp.
(Or, you could get a GK MB150 combo amp and spend more time practicing. This stuff does get tiresome, doesn't it?)
My question for you, Jack: do you bother to haul your TD100 around with you to your gigs these days?
That's funny. Huge posts three minutes apart. Good thing we don't have any work to do here in the hills of Kentuckiana.
While you guys are on this non micro gear thing, let me throw the Glockenlang Soul into the mix. I got turned onto this stuff by the groove shop and the fact that Christian Mcbride was using one even though he's got a Epifani endorsement.
The tone for DB is as good as I have ever heard. While it is a normal bass head it does provide a 5 band EQ the Low has a pretty wide Q (I think that's the right term) and passes as somewhat of a HPF and still gives you, Bass, mid, high and treble EQ controls. It sounds killer for DB and electric. In the recent past I've owned IAMP350, Epi UL502, Summit TD100, Summit 2BA-221, Millennia TD1 and a Focus 2RIII. I've dumped everything else accept the Millennia and my two Glocks.
I use a Planet pickup and own a AMT mic which on occassion I use if I am running to the house another idea I stole from McBride. I do not mix the mic into my amp. I also have used the AMT to record although a high quality Large condensor mic like a Neumann is superior if your really serious.
The tone for DB is as good as I have ever heard. While it is a normal bass head it does provide a 5 band EQ the Low has a pretty wide Q (I think that's the right term) and passes as somewhat of a HPF and still gives you, Bass, mid, high and treble EQ controls. It sounds killer for DB and electric. In the recent past I've owned IAMP350, Epi UL502, Summit TD100, Summit 2BA-221, Millennia TD1 and a Focus 2RIII. I've dumped everything else accept the Millennia and my two Glocks.
I use a Planet pickup and own a AMT mic which on occassion I use if I am running to the house another idea I stole from McBride. I do not mix the mic into my amp. I also have used the AMT to record although a high quality Large condensor mic like a Neumann is superior if your really serious.
