Double Bass Non-branded question

[thebassgrognard]

I have played bass guitar for 35 years and have wanted a double bass for a long time. Last few years I’ve been listening to and playing more jazz and wanting to jump into the db world as a result.

Locally a guy has the pictured bass for sale. His backstory is it was found by a luthier unfinished in a warehouse, and the luthier did a finish on it. By the time this guy bought it it needed some repairs so he took to KC Strings. They told him what they valued it at. No branding on it, but it looks good and is solid. He says fully carved, but I’m not qualified to label it as such. Any caveats with unbranded instrument if it has the features of a branded one, besides the resale value?

 

[TroyK]

"Unbranded" doesn't mean anything good or bad in the DB world.

We have some members and luthiers who should happen along soon and give opinions about what it might be and what issues if any they see.

I'll ask the obvious question, though, can you either get an opinion on it from KC Strings or did they provide him with a written assessment/appraisal of it? It's always a good idea to have a luthier check a bass out in a private sale. If they've already seen it that should make it easier.

I like the violin corners and the narrow shoulders, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Mark_T]

Can you get details of the edges? Any obvious cracks or any such?

It’s not uncommon for basses to be imported “in the white” (unvarnished). Sometimes they’re in need of a bit more woodworking too (graduating the top or cleaning up the bass bar).

 

[Wasnex]

he took to KC Strings. They told him what they valued it at.

Where is the documentation of this?

 

[thebassgrognard]

I asked him, he said didn’t have but KC strings had said potential buyer could call them, but also it’s been awhile. Everyone selling in KC claims KC Strings valued it at certain prices.

 

[NocoLaw]

I have no idea what price range you are talking about with this bass, but I just went to Robertson & Sons in Albuquerque a couple of weeks ago, and I played more than 20 basses in the $10,000-30,000 price range. The majority were not branded, as far as I could tell; including the lovely late-1800s German bass I brought home.

I’ve played bass guitar about 15 years, upright 10ish (guitar and other instruments though for 25+). My band is moving more and more acoustic, so I decided to get serious; I had really only messed around and played the Kay at bluegrass festivals, but never took it very seriously. Recently, I bought a Chadwick folding bass in the classifieds here for traveling; and this most recent purchase will be my #1 - and I wanted a nice, carved bass. Because of the vast difference between the Kay and the Chadwick (a Shen 100B), I realized that I really should try as many as I could for a serious purchase. The ergonomics and sound differences between double basses are so much more dramatic than with any other instrument I have ever played. If you haven’t gotten to try a lot of instruments, I highly recommend doing so, as best you can, before spending a lot of money.

 

[thebassgrognard]

He’s asking $4k for it, which would loosely track with local market on carved basses

 

[Wasnex]

I asked him, he said didn’t have but KC strings had said potential buyer could call them, but also it’s been awhile. Everyone selling in KC claims KC Strings valued it at certain prices.

The way to ensure you get quality and value is to buy from a reputable seller or have the bass inspected by a qualified expert.

AFAIK KC Strings is a reputable shop. If they are nearby, give them a visit and play through some of their inventory. Maybe you will find one you like better. At the very least, playing other basses with similar price points should give you some valuable perspective.

My impression is basses often sell for less than their appraised value. I could wrong, but AFAIK it's a matter or supply and demand. More basses than buyers.

There are lots of crappy basses with labels intended to infer they have a special pedigree. Many of them are CBSO: Let's be politically correct and say this means cheap bass shaped object. Garbage by another name.

 

[TroyK]

I have no idea what price range you are talking about with this bass, but I just went to Robertson & Sons in Albuquerque a couple of weeks ago, and I played more than 20 basses in the $10,000-30,000 price range. The majority were not branded, as far as I could tell; including the lovely late-1800s German bass I brought home.
...

Obviously, I can't credibly dispute your statement with regard to the basses you played, but I generally disagree that in a given scenario the majority of basses are unbranded. It's just more complicated than that and the "branding" of all, but a few exceptions will be a paper sticker inside the body. On a 100+ year old bass the sticker might be partial or faded/torn, but luthiers can usually recognized enough of what is there, plus trademark braces and things that can identify basses to greater or lesser degrees.

People will start to weigh in on this thread and say things like "Chinese made ~15 years old" based on the tuners or patterns. I can't do that credibly, but it's coming.

The other thing about "brands", which is very much a guitar instrument mentality, is that depending on the era the bass was made, the country of origin and the price point, a lot of "shop basses" were made in a few factories, but labeled/branded by resellers or exporters. So a 1950s Juzak, Wilfer, and Hofner might have been made in the same factory at the same time, by the same people, but given different labels. Sometimes the "brand" specified the design and construction, sometimes the differences were finish and choice of hardware.

There were and are also companies that make their own instruments. Certainly on the higher end of orchestral instruments, brands and luthiers are more significant indicators. But, that's not what we're looking at here.

I'm not great at this, but I'm going to guess that was made after 2000 and imported from China, maybe unfinished. You didn't say the price/value and I'm not asking, but those two facts don't tell me if it's a good or bad instrument. A luthier inspecting it would. How it was constructed, what glue was used, and how seasoned the wood was are all important factors. I personally can't speculate on any of those things from the photos.

 

[TroyK]

He’s asking $4k for it, which would loosely track with local market on carved basses

For $4k have him agree to take it to KC Strings and meet him there. If you have to pay for an hour or 1/2 an hour of bench time, it's well worth it for a purchase of that size. Talk with the luthier after they inspect it. And as @Wasnax said, KC Strings will have other basses in that price range to compare it to while you're there.

 

[james condino]

$4k for a 15 year old unbranded Chinese bass in this economy.......start practicing your sales pitch to the Mrs when you try to explain why you sold it for $1800 in ten months.......

For slightly more $$$$, possibly the same amount, a little patience will reward you with a Juzek or similar bass, but NOT by shopping in one of the more expensive specialty shops in the nation. Basses are everywhere. Patience will reward you with far more bass for far less money than you think. Impatience almost always begets buyer's remorse.

 

[NocoLaw]

Obviously, I can't credibly dispute your statement with regard to the basses you played, but I generally disagree that in a given scenario the majority of basses are unbranded. It's just more complicated than that and the "branding" of all, but a few exceptions will be a paper sticker inside the body. On a 100+ year old bass the sticker might be partial or faded/torn, but luthiers can usually recognized enough of what is there, plus trademark braces and things that can identify basses to greater or lesser degrees.

You are not really disputing; you agree with my thoughts about “branding” in the statement about guitar instrument mentality. My Kay is a brand instrument, so is the Shen, to me. There was a Hawkes Panormo at Robertsons that stood out - maybe that’s a brand; Hawkes & Sons was a shop/firm, but I wouldn’t think of them as a brand like Fender or Music Man, etc. (or Kay). And most of the instruments I played were much less “make and model” descriptions than the Hawkes. I think you are just further defining “brand.”

And for the record, I love my Kay for what it is and how I use it - no shade on Kay from me. I also have no doubt that James Condino is correct about there being a cost for the experience of a shop like Robertson & Sons. It only makes sense that there would be cost associated with that level of EXPERIENCE (for me, I mean - I know there are tons of incredible independent and small shop luthiers ).

 

[logdrum]

I paid 2100 in 2018 with a bow for a 2002 Lemur Catalina bass sold in 2004 for 4800 -- that's what it said on the receipt anyway, Bought it from someone who used it at university and through out high school. I think I still paid too much but the the bow is a decent bow No obvious paper branding.

MY small 5/8 38.5 scale has marks that the luthier determined that it was a older bass like over a hundred years old but I got it cheap also because of the size. Nothing to write home about except that it amplifies well , it is a smaller bass after all but great for moving around and fits inside my Jetta sedan

Do you have experience playing a decent carved bass? That really helps. Like James said - wait!

 

[Jason Sypher]

I have played bass guitar for 35 years and have wanted a double bass for a long time. Last few years I’ve been listening to and playing more jazz and wanting to jump into the db world as a result.

Locally a guy has the pictured bass for sale. His backstory is it was found by a luthier unfinished in a warehouse, and the luthier did a finish on it. By the time this guy bought it it needed some repairs so he took to KC Strings. They told him what they valued it at. No branding on it, but it looks good and is solid. He says fully carved, but I’m not qualified to label it as such. Any caveats with unbranded instrument if it has the features of a branded one, besides the resale value?

Double basses are a strange entity. They can look solid and be horrible, they can look horrible and be 200 year old Italian trophies. The branding means nothing except security in knowing exactly what you’ve got and some information about how and where it was made. Branded basses CAN be easier to assess.

You need the hep of a professional and id get that to a shop such as KC Strings preferably with a professional upright player song with you. It will readily apparent what it’s worth and if it’s a bass you would want. That’s the only safe approach. As stated you might gods better option at that price point or even cheaper. The priority is health, sound and playability. Within a general chosen bracket cost is the least important. Doublebass is not something one picks up casually. Be patient and honest with yourself. Do not get emotional until you’ve got everything else covered.

 

[thebassgrognard]

Yeah I think I’m going to cool my jets on this one. I’ll visit some shops to try stuff out before I buy one.

 

[TDAN]

Doublebass is not something one picks up casually.

Well put. Coming from bass guitar, it took me a while to wrap my mind around how much more complicated almost everything is with string bass.

tough to make a good buying decision in a private sale when you see not yet proficient on the instrument. A good shop really earns their premium for a first bass purchase imo

 

[TroyK]

Rent from KC Strings or somewhere else and take at least a few lessons while you do. Most places will apply some or all of your rental costs to a purchase from them, ask about their policy.

While you're renting and gaining comfort and experience playing the doublebass, start playing basses for sale at various price points.

You'll get opinionated about what you're looking for that way and about how badly you really want to play double bass. It is AWESOME, but it is also not necessary and a general PITA.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Double basses are a strange entity. They can look solid and be horrible, they can look horrible and be 200 year old Italian trophies. The branding means nothing except security in knowing exactly what you’ve got and some information about how and where it was made. Branded basses CAN be easier to assess.

You need the hep of a professional and id get that to a shop such as KC Strings preferably with a professional upright player song with you. It will readily apparent what it’s worth and if it’s a bass you would want. That’s the only safe approach. As stated you might gods better option at that price point or even cheaper. The priority is health, sound and playability. Within a general chosen bracket cost is the least important. Doublebass is not something one picks up casually. Be patient and honest with yourself. Do not get emotional until you’ve got everything else covered.

I swear I’m alright. Lately I’ve been a terrible texter.

 

[LouisF]

Also, check out Greg at Black Dog in KC: Black Dog Bass Works