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Not sure if I need a DI

nachothrash

nachothrash

Mar 16, 2014
30
19
Argentina
#1
Last year, after getting my first real job, I started to build a more serious rig
Got myself a nice Squier VM V jazz bass, a Hartke Lh500 head and 4.5xl cab, and a Darkglass b3k overdrive pedal to add some growl
I'm more than happy with the sound I get while rehearsing on my band's room. Thing is, we are about to start playing venues again, so live sound is becoming a concern
Last time I played live, I still had my crappy Cort bass and no pedals.
Sound tech just came, plugged my bass to a DI box, and from there to FOH and to the amp so I could monitor myself
As you can guess, my sound wasn't the greatest
I want to be able to shape my eq a little bit to my likings before going to FOH, and just realised next time I'll be in the same situation I was last time... only difference is I'll have my b3k before hitting the di box
I was a guitarist before I saw the light, but I gotta say it was much easier. Yes, I know sound techs always eq your sound, but at least micing my amp gave me more control over my tone before going to FOH. Now my amp is just a monitor
So, I'm a complete noob at live setups, but from what I see I could do one of the following

1) Go with B3k -> LH 500 -> LH 500 balanced output -> FOH:
That would be the easiest one. I don't understand why, but I've read that's actually a pretty bad idea. I don't know if the balanced output is post or pre-eq. The manual says you can use the effects output for the same purposes, so who knows

2) Ditch my Darkglass b3k, get a b7k ultra. Go B7k output -> LH500's Fx return loop & B7k balanced output -> FOH:
The b7k is basically a pre amp version of the b3k and serves as a DI. I'm not particularly fond of the idea of rendering my head's pre amp useless, and again, am not sure if the balanced output of the b7k is pre or post eq, which is the whole point of this

Pros and cons of each approach? Any other solutions?
Thanks in advance!
 
#2
nachothrash said:
1) Go with B3k -> LH 500 -> LH 500 balanced output -> FOH:
That would be the easiest one. I don't understand why, but I've read that's actually a pretty bad idea.
Click to expand...
you don't understand why because that's not actually true! :)

that hartke direct out is pre-everything, so the amp's tone doesn't even show up in the DI. were it me i might insist on sending the PA the signal from the effects send, which would actually get the amp's tone and EQ into the PA.

your job is to dial in a tone that's balanced enough to work for the PA (say, taken from the hartke head) and their job is to make it work out front.

i'm not familiar with that darkglass pedal, but your main goal there is to set it so that when you kick it on and off there isn't a big volume difference to send the soundguy scrambling to your channel to re-adjust.
 
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#4
I always think it's worth having a pedal with a DI as a backup to the amp. Normally when I've run through a PA we've taken the line off the amp's DI, but it's good to have a plan B just in case of amp failure. So far it hasn't happened to me, but I've had a guitarist's amp die mid gig and he played the rest of the show running his pedals straight to the board.
 
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#5
Here's the thing. I have said this probably a hundred times here now. The physics of a bar and have PA speakers is totally different from the physical of your right in the rehearsal spot.

Yes, you want to send that BK and your amp to the board. BUT you also need to be willing to work with the sound guy and give him the EQ he needs to be able to make you sound great out front.

Short version: Your rehearsal/bedroom tone might sound like garbage out front in a bar. Be willing to compromise.
 
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#6
two fingers said:
Here's the thing. I have said this probably a hundred times here now. The physics of a bar and have PA speakers is totally different from the physical of your right in the rehearsal spot.

Yes, you want to send that BK and your amp to the board. BUT you also need to be willing to work with the sound guy and give him the EQ he needs to be able to make you sound great out front.

Short version: Your rehearsal/bedroom tone might sound like garbage out front in a bar. Be willing to compromise.
Click to expand...


This is so true. Unless you are a rockstar with a trademark sound who can have the FOH guy fired and get a new one within mere moments, you should let him do his job.


If you are just a bassplayer with his own ideas how your bass should sound, you should feed the FOH a signal with little to no EQ.
If you are a professional sound engineer, you will do the very same thing ;-)


If you use several sounds through a gig, talk to the FOH-Guy and explain what you want. The EQ settings for your rig on stage have nothing to do with the EQ settings needed to make the bass sound good through the FOH.

If you feed him a signal that is heavily EQed to make your amp sound good, chances are that
a) the signal quality is actually worse than a plain signal
b) you're pissing off the walking, talking EQ unit that is responsible for the sound the audience gets.
 
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#7
walterw said:
you don't understand why because that's not actually true! :)

that hartke direct out is pre-everything, so the amp's tone doesn't even show up in the DI. were it me i might insist on sending the PA the signal from the effects send, which would actually get the amp's tone and EQ into the PA.

your job is to dial in a tone that's balanced enough to work for the PA (say, taken from the hartke head) and their job is to make it work out front.

i'm not familiar with that darkglass pedal, but your main goal there is to set it so that when you kick it on and off there isn't a big volume difference to send the soundguy scrambling to your channel to re-adjust.
Click to expand...

Hmmm - many amps are preamp > DI or have a bypass switch - are you saying this particular amp does not?
 
#8
As stated above, the DI out on your amp is pre-EQ. Sending signal to FOH here would include your B3K, but not the amp EQ. Totally fine, unless you ruin the sound before the amp (that is, bass EQ and B3K settings)... There might (or might not) be a grounding issue with using the amp's DI, so house DI might have to be used at some gigs anyway. In this case, it should be after the B3K, and before your amp.
 
#9
SanDiegoHarry said:
Hmmm - many amps are preamp > DI or have a bypass switch - are you saying this particular amp does not?
Click to expand...

I was right there with you. But I looked it up and the manual says it is "pre-EQ and pre-VOLUME". Interesting. That seems like a simple thing and I can't imagine why it wouldn't have a post-EQ option.
 
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#15
Thanks for the input guys
From what I see, there's no general consensus about this
I can't understand why am I supposed to give a signal with little to no eq to foh. While playing live as a guitarist I knew I could eq my sound to my liking, as long as I didn't do something stupid like turning my mids down to zero.
Why is it any different for bass?

JohnMCA72 said:
You may not need it today, or even this month, but sooner or later you're going to run into situations where you'll need a DI. I always carry at least 1.
Click to expand...

What kind of situations?
For recording, I plug my bass into an audio interface and use vsts to emulate a head + cab, so I don't think I really need one there
I know it's imperative to have at least a DI Box to send your signal to FOH, but usually sound tech has one (plus, my amp already has a balanced output)
As for a DI/Pre-amp pedal, what's the point of it if I am not to send an eq'ed signal to FOH?
 
#16
nachothrash said:
I can't understand why am I supposed to give a signal with little to no eq to foh. While playing live as a guitarist I knew I could eq my sound to my liking, as long as I didn't do something stupid like turning my mids down to zero.
Why is it any different for bass?
Click to expand...
i'm with you on that!

if you have your s**t together as a musician, the signal you send out front containing "your tone" should be a "good" sound and cause no problems.
 
#17
nachothrash said:
Thanks for the input guys
From what I see, there's no general consensus about this
I can't understand why am I supposed to give a signal with little to no eq to foh. While playing live as a guitarist I knew I could eq my sound to my liking, as long as I didn't do something stupid like turning my mids down to zero.
Why is it any different for bass?



What kind of situations?
For recording, I plug my bass into an audio interface and use vsts to emulate a head + cab, so I don't think I really need one there
I know it's imperative to have at least a DI Box to send your signal to FOH, but usually sound tech has one (plus, my amp already has a balanced output)
As for a DI/Pre-amp pedal, what's the point of it if I am not to send an eq'ed signal to FOH?
Click to expand...
Good points OP. Im the poster that said my signal went thru swr rig raw. While it said it didnt bother me, it wouldnt be my first preference either. I now run a Little Markiii, and its di has pre/post option. I run post, but my knobs all sit at 12:00. I was boosting my bass inthe past to about 1:30, but then i looked at rhe sound board and he had my bass channel"s lows rolled off, because thats what worked for the room that day. The amp has a couple other knobs like spkr emulating and a sweep scoop. I use just a smidge of those. If i Wasn't hooked into the PA, or had to be quiter I would eq much differently. My pbass with just a vol and 1 tone knob seems about all the tonal adjustment i need for a typical party type of gig.
 
#20
A heavily EQ'ed tone (massive low end boost, massive mid cut, highs boosted in the 10khz range only and other craziness) will sound like garbage through a PA system even though it sounds great to your stage rig. Your bass, plus a pedal that is not set to extreme settings coupled with a good amount of midrange and high end, will likely be workable to the sound guy.

You should have your own DI box because you can't always count on someone else to have it for you or for the quality to be that great. The Radial JDI or the Radial Pro DI are two great choices and sound excellent. In addition, you need to determine what signal you are giving the sound man. I give him distortion and a clean tone blended together nicely so my main bass tone is still very present. I set my stage tone to sound good for that PARTICULAR room and send the sound man an effected signal from my board. I make sure my signal is the majority of what I want the audience to hear. This allows me to tweak my onstage rig to whatever I need to hear myself and NOT annoy the sound man. I use a Fearless 212 and could care less about the cabinet tone and/or micing the cab. Just things to think about.
 
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