Not sure if technique is bad or setup is bad or both

[ciemnika]

Hi all--I've been playing guitar for almost 30 years and play at a pretty high skill level. I also do work on my own guitars, and have done for ages. Sharing both of these because either one could be screwing me up.

About a year or so, I decided I wanted to learn the bass, and I'm playing on a Fender American Performer P/J 4-string. I started out playing with a pick, and I got to a pretty ok capability level with it and decided that I should learn to play with my fingers. And that's when everything fell all to pieces.

When I use my index and middle finger, I have to be ridiculously careful to avoid clanking the strings. The clanking seems to be coming from the strings being depressed onto the fret wire and making a truly unpleasant thwacking noise. I try not to press the strings down with my right hand when I'm plucking them, but pull them gently parallel to the body of the guitar.

This doesn't happen with the pick at all. I set the bass up a month or so ago, and I could recheck the truss rod, make sure my nut's filed correctly, reset the bridge saddle height, etc., but I'm wondering if this is likely a technique issue first and foremost. To be honest, my action feels kind of high. I don't get fret buzz, and the measurements were all dead on when I did the setup.

But again, I'm used to doing this on a guitar, so I'm wondering if there are setup nuances I'm fully missing on the bass or if this is primarily likely to be a technique issue.

Any advice is welcome, and if anything is unclear, please let me know. Thanks so much!

 

[Kenan]

It could be a setup issue, but it might also just be a matter of tone. Some players embrace clank as part of their sound. I don't, and sounds like you don't either. You can avoid it by using mellower strings, such as flats or tapes; dialing down your tone knob; using a LPF; adjusting EQ on amp or elsewhere.

 

[ciemnika]

It could be a setup issue, but it might also just be a matter of tone. Some players embrace clank as part of their sound. I don't, and sounds like you don't either. You can avoid it by using mellower strings, such as flats or tapes; dialing down your tone knob; using a LPF; adjusting EQ on amp or elsewhere.

Thank you! I may order some other strings to try out. I play rock, metal, punk sort of stuff, so I'm not sure if flats are for me... but if they're good enough for Steve Harris...

Clank could have been a poor descriptor--maybe it's "clack." It's a transient, metallic sound that happens, much less a tonal quality. I've been experimenting with different finger positions, both relative to the string and relative to the bridge, and I've pretty well convinced myself it's a technique issue, though I'm still not convinced my setup is bang on.

 

[Les Fret]

Sounds like a technique issue. If you say your action is high you should not hear a clank/clack. Higher action is less clank You can try playing with a lighter touch and closer to the bridge.

But without having seen it we can’t really tell what the problem is and we’re just guessing. Can you make a short video?

 

[Polfuste]

When you play with fingers, how hard is your attack ? Could come from it. You can also look itoo following set up guide to compare with your guitare practice of it:
The Ultimate Guide to The Perfect Bass Setup

 

[pcake]

i've played with my fingers always. i get clank if i pick downward toward the neck; to avoid clank, pick sideways across the strings rather than downward or play with minimal attack and use the volume on your amp to be louder rather than your fingers.

if you weren't picking the strings downward toward the frets, they couldn't be hitting the frets. you could be picking them at a slight angle, but basically they're still whacking the frets or possibly the end of the fretboard.

 

[SteveCS]

As @Les Fret says, without actually seeing your hand in motion it is impossible to be sure, but in the first instance you could take a closer look at your right hand fingers and the direction of movement of your fingertips as you strike the strings. Here (see also @pcake post above), depending on your setup and the forces in play, the red paths are likely to generate impact with the fret - the green paths less likely. See how the green arrows aim at the top edge of the string such that you play across the rather than pushing through the centre:

There are a couple of ways to achieve this. One is to position your hand and wrist away from the bass body with the fingers pointing inwards and perpendicular to the strings;

The other is to position the hand closer to the bass body with the fingers pointing back towards the bridge, at about 45° to the strings;

 

[mambo4]

^^ yes. Don't pull the string into the bass, pull it across, parallel to the plane of the strings.
Toward your chin, not your belly, as it were.

I imagine how a bowed Upright Bass string will vibrate, what direction the bow pushes the string.
Pluck along that vector

 

[Lobster11]

This might be a long shot, but I think worth asking just in case: Do you tend to practice unplugged -- i.e. without an amp or headphones?

The reason I ask is because IME practicing unplugged with a pick works fine, because even I'm picking lightly I can hear myself well enough to... well, practice. But practicing unplugged with my fingers, using a soft touch (as always try to use), doesn't work because I can't hear myself -- and so I tend to dig in harder to increase the volume. The easiest way to learn to pluck softly is by plugging in and turning up the volume, so when you dig in it's too damn loud.

 

[Reedt2000]

Might be an obvious and unnecessary question but what are the pickup heights like? Are you sure you're not pushing the strings into the poles? That makes an unpleasant and non musical clack noise. If so just lower them till it doesn't happen.

 

[JKos]

How hard are you attacking the strings? Play lighter and turn up the amp.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Hi all--I've been playing guitar for almost 30 years and play at a pretty high skill level. I also do work on my own guitars, and have done for ages. Sharing both of these because either one could be screwing me up.

About a year or so, I decided I wanted to learn the bass, and I'm playing on a Fender American Performer P/J 4-string. I started out playing with a pick, and I got to a pretty ok capability level with it and decided that I should learn to play with my fingers. And that's when everything fell all to pieces.

When I use my index and middle finger, I have to be ridiculously careful to avoid clanking the strings. The clanking seems to be coming from the strings being depressed onto the fret wire and making a truly unpleasant thwacking noise. I try not to press the strings down with my right hand when I'm plucking them, but pull them gently parallel to the body of the guitar.

This doesn't happen with the pick at all. I set the bass up a month or so ago, and I could recheck the truss rod, make sure my nut's filed correctly, reset the bridge saddle height, etc., but I'm wondering if this is likely a technique issue first and foremost. To be honest, my action feels kind of high. I don't get fret buzz, and the measurements were all dead on when I did the setup.

But again, I'm used to doing this on a guitar, so I'm wondering if there are setup nuances I'm fully missing on the bass or if this is primarily likely to be a technique issue.

Any advice is welcome, and if anything is unclear, please let me know. Thanks so much!

Post a video of you playing with your fingers and you'll be deluged with responses.

 

[ciemnika]

Thanks, y'all. This has all been super helpful. I'm something like 99% certain it's technique at this point. The diagram was especially helpful, @SteveCS -- thank you.

@Polfuste -- I don't think I'm attacking too hard, but I guess I could be. Thanks for the link to that guide. I'll check it out.
@pcake -- Yeah, I think I'm just mashing the string into the fret.
@mambo4 -- This makes sense. Trying to do this intentionally is yielding better results.
@Lobster11 -- I always play plugged in.
@Reedt2000 -- I don't think I'm hitting the poles, but I will try lowering the pickup height a bit and see how that goes.
@JKos -- I am a pretty aggressive guitar player, and I think that habit is hurting me a lot here. I have a compressor pedal and an amp with good controls. I need to focus on letting those do the work, I think.

Here's a video; hope this is useful. In this, I'm trying to be a little more parallel to the body (vs. pressing down), but also, not overthinking it so that some of the clacking comes through so it's for sure audible.[This invalid link has been removed]

Really appreciate everyone's willingness to offer help. Have a great night.

 

[micguy]

I clink and and clank intentionally as a technique for certain songs, but not all the time. Setting a bass up to where you can do clean or clank with technique is something I'm also good at - I do setups for my gear and a bunch of other folks' as well. I can't tell from your description where things are going "wrong" - I'd have to check your setup to know more.

 

[Reedt2000]

Looks like you're hitting down into the strings, making them clack on the frets. Which is something many of us do for effect. Stand your thumb up a little and get it off the body. That'll put your hand more above the strings letting you pull through parallel to the body.

The compression may be accentuating the articulation too. All that said, in a mix, a lot of that clack is absorbed and it helps the bass cut through.

 

[pcake]

Thanks, y'all. This has all been super helpful. I'm something like 99% certain it's technique at this point. The diagram was especially helpful, @SteveCS -- thank you.

@Polfuste -- I don't think I'm attacking too hard, but I guess I could be. Thanks for the link to that guide. I'll check it out.
@pcake -- Yeah, I think I'm just mashing the string into the fret.
@mambo4 -- This makes sense. Trying to do this intentionally is yielding better results.
@Lobster11 -- I always play plugged in.
@Reedt2000 -- I don't think I'm hitting the poles, but I will try lowering the pickup height a bit and see how that goes.
@JKos -- I am a pretty aggressive guitar player, and I think that habit is hurting me a lot here. I have a compressor pedal and an amp with good controls. I need to focus on letting those do the work, I think.

Here's a video; hope this is useful. In this, I'm trying to be a little more parallel to the body (vs. pressing down), but also, not overthinking it so that some of the clacking comes through so it's for sure audible.[This invalid link has been removed]

Really appreciate everyone's willingness to offer help. Have a great night.

it looks like your fingers are striking down onto the strings toward the body. this is a method i use to get clank when playing metal.

 

[Les Fret]

it looks like your fingers are striking down onto the strings toward the body. this is a method i use to get clank when playing metal.

To the OP. thanks for the video. I think above remark is the problem. Try pulling the string from the side instead of hitting it from above. As the diagram from SteveCS pointed out very well.

Also you hold your underarm and thumb flat on top of the body. Try raising that a bit and exaggerate finger movement a bit for now. You seem to strike it a bit too careful. Also experiment with playing closer to the bridge. Good luck!

 

[SteveCS]

...
Here's a video; hope this is useful. In this, I'm trying to be a little more parallel to the body (vs. pressing down), but also, not overthinking it so that some of the clacking comes through so it's for sure audible.[This invalid link has been removed]

Really appreciate everyone's willingness to offer help. Have a great night.

Is might be worth watching that back as 0.25x speed: most of the clanky notes seem to come from your right hand index finger. Believe it or not there are a couple of places (~0:06 & 0:18) where your finger goes under the string and pulls it away from the bass which then clanks back when you release it. Red line = fingertip path; Dotted circle = 'tugged' string position before release; Blue arrow = string direction after release.

 

[ciemnika]

@micguy -- That makes a lot of sense. I don't think the clanking is "bad," but to your point, I want to be able to control it. Right now, it just feels accidental.
@Reedt2000 -- Thank you for the tip on the thumb position. I'll try that. The compressor is definitely a double edged sword!
@pcake -- Yeah, I can see it being useful in a number of settings, especially depending on the bassline and drums.
@Les Fret -- Thanks for the arm positioning advice; I'll try that. I'm definitely over-indexing on care right now for sure. Partially because I'm trying to figure out some mechanics, but also, my natural tendency is to Hulk smash the strings, and I'm working to overcome it. I will work on the balance.
@SteveCS -- That's a really insightful observation about the liftoff and rebound of the string. I watched again in slo-mo and see what you're saying. Thank you for pointing that out.

I think I have a pretty clear path forward now, so thank you all again. I want to be able to play rapid two-finger plucking patterns in the clankiest positions smoothly if I try, so I'm going to focus practice time over the next few days into getting my plucking from the bottom of the string up to my chin to be a second-nature feeling and habit, then try to loosen up and make it a little more musical. Definitely also going to work the arm position / biomechanics angle to maximize the natural likelihood of just "accidentally" getting the right striking angle down.

It's so funny to me how many people who are starting bass as their first instrument say that finger style feels so natural to them. It feels so alien to me after so many years of picking a guitar that not only is my right hand bad at it, but also my left hand stops working well because of how much concentration I'm putting into the right hand!

 

[SteveCS]

I clink and and clank intentionally as a technique for certain songs, but not all the time.

I
...
I don't think the clanking is "bad," but to your point, I want to be able to control it. Right now, it just feels accidental.
...
That's a really insightful observation about the liftoff and rebound of the string. I watched again in slo-mo and see what you're saying. Thank you for pointing that out.
...

I also like to have some clank 'available' through the setup, which it seems you already have. So yeah, @micguy is right - I don't think you need to 'work it out' of your technique but work it 'in' so that you can control it and have it as and when you need it.