I wish there was better video quality here, but that happened…
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Now I know…
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
I’ll give my famnable nickels worth here.
I really don’t think Karns is really better on fretless than anyone else but like Zappa described his own playing.
“I have a guitar, a basic knowledge of the instrument…and an imagination “
Imagination is the key. The guy thinks outside the box. He hears the tune then works his playing to suit. If he can’t read music then what’s the point of charts?
He applies his own product.
I really don’t think Karns is really better on fretless than anyone else but like Zappa described his own playing.
“I have a guitar, a basic knowledge of the instrument…and an imagination “
Imagination is the key. The guy thinks outside the box. He hears the tune then works his playing to suit. If he can’t read music then what’s the point of charts?
He applies his own product.
Tina Weymouth and many others, too, not that I want to get into that debate.
Kate Bush always had killer taste in bassist, I came to love her music when she used Eberhard Weber. Joan Armatrading is another great artist that room in her music for bassist with their own voice.
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I can't help but chime in on the whole music theory/reading thing.
Why in the world would you not want to learn a skill that would (most likely) make you better at what you do? Mick Karn was 1 in a million for sure, but on the flip side Jaco learned to read and it only deepened his music. I will always push for learning to read music--at every level. It makes your musical circle bigger, it gives you access to the history of music, and it will probably double or triple the number of calls you get for work. IMHE, et. al.
Thank you for watching!!
Why in the world would you not want to learn a skill that would (most likely) make you better at what you do? Mick Karn was 1 in a million for sure, but on the flip side Jaco learned to read and it only deepened his music. I will always push for learning to read music--at every level. It makes your musical circle bigger, it gives you access to the history of music, and it will probably double or triple the number of calls you get for work. IMHE, et. al.
Thank you for watching!!
I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you in a general sense. The conversation was about Karn specifically. He wasn't lacking for work until towards the end of his life when he was sick. I guess when Karn comes up his lack of proper training has to as well.
The thing about Karn is that not only was he exceptionally gifted, but I am certain he had good fortune to make the professional connections he made. That said, I read of the difficulty he had on Bill Bruford project because of lack of formal knowledge.
I imagine that would be daunting for even some well trained musicians. Neil Murray, who played with Gary Moore, Coliseum II, Whitesnake, etc.. was brought in for some gigs and pre-production of a Bruford album when Jeff Berlin wasn't available and he said he was stretched to the ends of his ability.
I should have mentioned it in the video. What he did was remarkable and singular. I don't hear a lack of anything. As a teacher, my fear is when the conversation steers in that "he never needed to read music" direction, it sends a bad message, IMHO. He was an alien from another planet, unlike us mere mortals.
Actually, you just said the right reply. Karn had ability so far above the average that he did alright without a typical musical foundation. That said, even Karn would have benefitted from formal knowledge.
It’s like telling a typical good athlete to learn the fundamentals because odds are the kid does not have all time great natural talent.
Pretty sure I've mentioned this on TalkBass before, but I once came up with a math equation that seems to describe the similarities and differences rather succinctly:
Mick Karn = Percy Jones - Jaco Pastorius. (That's a minus symbol between Percy and Jaco...i.e., if you subtracted everything "Jaco-esque" from Percy Jones' playing, you'd still be left with a lot of "Karn-esque" stuff.)
And the reciprocal works as well: Percy Jones = Mick Karn + Jaco Pastorius
[I'm only half-serious...but it's a fun way to think about their individual stylings and overlap. Not meant to describe their influences or references.]
I still kick myself for missing that tour when it came to The Bottom Line in NYC during the fall of 1987 [edit: although I think by the time they got to NYC Isham was out and somebody White -- Michael White? -- was on trumpet. Or violin.]
But I did get to see Mark Isham at The Bottom Line shortly thereafter, and his touring band had a similar lineup:
- Mark Isham - trumpet and synthesizers
- David Torn - guitar and looping insanity
- Mick Karn - bass
- Terry Bozzio - drums
- Kurt Wortman - percussion and synthesizers
Watching Karn play was a trip: His right hand plucking technique looked so awkward it was distracting, difficult for me to watch. But close your eyes and man, the sounds that came out of his hands! mind = blown
Once again, I will cite Hendrix, and then, what about all the players who get as far as understanding/utilizing charts, get a street sense of what theory is(but not ‘formal’ training), and still manage to do sessions and navigate well past three-chord material?
Folks who know music but can’t read can often get along fine unless sight reading is involved. Karn could not read nor did he know the notes. That is a magnitude more to overcome.
If you learn music from the street or in a classroom, the knowledge is the same . Quincy Jones played trumpet in school, but it was Ray Charles who really showed him the fundamentals of arranging. Ray Charles taught Jones informally but Charles learned at the school for the blind in Florida. Quincy Jones later studied string arrangement under a master in France.
Could someone please inform me regarding the bass Karn played in this concert performance vid? Thanks in advance. Killer post BTW.
I seem to remember in an interview Karn mentioning not even tuning his bass.
Wal
Karn is shown tuning up a couple times in the above mentioned video.
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Yes, I know you were having fun, but Jones had forged his style and was playing professionally way before the world at large had heard of Jaco. My first Percy encounter was on Eno’s Another Green World album, which was released before Metheny’s Bright Sized Life. And, as pointed out in the video, Karn purposely avoided exposure to Pastorious(as opposed to when I saw the Bill Bruford solo band, with this new guy, Jeff Berlin, and my impression was, “oh, Bill’s got a Jaco clone”).
