Now what?

[neo27ny]

Let's try this again. I started a post but it got fairly lengthy, I'll try to just keep to the point here. I bought my first bass and in the three days I've owned it I feel I've learned more and/or understand it better than guitar.(I've played guitar on and off for 15 years, tried teaching myself but couldn't grasp the theory and never bothered to learn the basics). Bass feels so much more natural and I feel I am actually learning now. I slowed down compared to guitar, am learning the fretboard, learned the major scale pattern. My question is where do I go from here? We don't have many options for teachers around here and I want to keep moving forward until I can find a teacher. I need a push in the right direction, any advice would be appreciated.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I came to bass from rhythm guitar. The learning curve from rhythm guitar to bass is not that steep. We play chord tones one note at a time - to the beat of the song. Chord tones make up 85% of what we do the other 15% is done with scale notes. Scale notes for solo work and chord tones for accompaniment work. Play from fake chord sheet music just like you did on rhythm guitar - just remember we play the chord's notes one note at a time to the beat of the song.

The following should give you an overall view of what lies ahead:

......... As far as jamming - with out sheet music - I assume some stuff. 1) The chord progression. Most music will follow certain chord progressions, i.e. Country I IV V7, Jazz ii V7 I. My point your music has a chord progression that is used most of the time. Assume that and then..... 2) Root on 1. If you want more - then R-5-R-5. Still need more - R-5-8-5. Still need more throw in the rest of the chord's tones R-3-5-b7, etc. Walk to the next chord with chromatic runs. Target the next root - miss it - by 1, 2 or 3 frets then walk to it one fret at a time and be on it for the chord change. Assume what is normally done then listen and if that does not fit - adapt. Root on 1 still works.

I found Online Bass Lessons at StudyBass.com and Ed's book "Building Walking Bass Lines" to be on track and both have great value. There is one more bass line book I would recommend, "Bass lines in minutes" by Kris Berg. "Bass Guitar for Dummies" is a good refresher book, as it has a little bit of everything you will be using. Your public library will probably have a copy. Scott Devine's video lessons have great value and will be well worth your time.

My old standby chart of generic bass lines using the major scale box as a Rosetta stone may help:

Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box.

Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

Basic Chords
• Major Triad = R-3-5
• Minor Triad = R-b3-5
• Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5

7th Chords
• Maj7 = R-3-5-7
• Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
• Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
• ½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
• Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7

See a chord and play it's chord tones. As every key will have three major, three minor and one diminished chord it's a good idea to get your major (R-3-5-7), minor (R-b3-5-b7) and diminished bass line chord tones (R-b3-b5-b7) into muscle memory so when you see a chord your fingers just know what will work. Now the song may only give you enough room for the root, or root five - adapt and get as many chord tones into your bass line as needed. Root on 1 and a steady groove from the other chord tones plus something to call attention to the chord change will keep you gigging.

Scales
• Major Scale = R-2-3-4-5-6-7 Home base
• Major Pentatonic = R-2-3-5-6 Leave out the 4 & 7
• Natural Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 Major scale with the 3, 6 & 7 flatted.
• Minor Pentatonic = R-b3-4-5-b7 Leave out the 2 & 6.
• Blues = R-b3-4-b5-5-b7 Minor pentatonic with the blue note b5 added.
• Harmonic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-7 Natural minor with a natural 7.
• Melodic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-6-7 Major scale with a b3.

Let the major scale be your home base then change a few notes and you have something different. No need to memorize a zillion patterns. Let the major scale pattern be your go to pattern - then adapt/adjust from there.

Major modes
• Ionian same as the Major Scale.
• Lydian use the major scale and sharp the 4 - yes, it’s that simple.
• Mixolydian use the major scale and flat the 7. Change one note.....

Minor Modes
• Aeolian same as the Natural Minor scale.
• Dorian use the Natural Minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. Change one note.
• Phrygian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2. Again change one note.
• Locrian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2 and the 5. OK here you have to change two notes.

Modal Harmony - the rest of the story.
• If you play your modes over a chord progression you will probably only hear the tonal center of your progression.
• However, if you play your modes over a modal vamp the vamp will sustain the modal mood long enough for the modal mood to be heard. The modal vamp droning effect will sustain the modal mood. Where with a chord progression the chords change so quickly that the modal mood does not have time to develop. Modal vamps of one to two chords let the modal mood be heard. http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm3.html
Scales and modes are for the melody - your solo. Chord tones are for your accompaniment bass line. Of course that's IMHO. To solo let the melody be your guide. Yep, melody has to be in there some place. Counting on running a scale or a mode and letting that be your lead solo - good luck. The song's tune is the foundation for your solo or your improvisation of that tune. Let the melody be your guide. OK easy said, hard to do. As the melody and the chord line to harmonize must share some of the same notes at the same time in the song -- and as the songwriter has already taken all that into account - inserting the harmonizing chord where needed - it makes since to play the chord's pentatonic scale over the chord - as that scale will have three chord tones and two safe passing notes in it's makeup. Play the chord's pentatonic scale notes over the chord changes as your melody solo right at first. Major chord - major pentatonic R-2-3-5-6 and minor chord - minor pentatonic R-b3-4-5-b7. Mix the notes up, no need to just run them in scale order. Think generic licks made from pentatonic notes and move those licks around with the chord changes.
Hal Galper's Master Class - Musical Vocabulary - YouTube R-3-5-3-6 8-5-R or 3-5-8-8-6-5-3-R. Make up some that sound good to you. Twenty licks used a hundred ways......


Generic Notes - for your bass line.
• The root, five and eight are generic and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
• The 3 is generic to all major chords. So R-3-5-3 will fit under any major chord.
• The b3 is generic to all minor chords. And R-b3-5-8 will fit under any minor chord. Why the 8? Well the 8 is just another root in the next octave.
• The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. Yep, R-3-5-7 fits nicely.
• The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. G7 = R-3-5-b7 or Gm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
• The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. Love the sound of R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
• The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
• In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
• Roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 & 7 will play a lot of bass.

Listen to what is said in these videos;
Hal Galper's Master Class - Technique, Part 2 - YouTube
Peace Piece (Bill Evans) - solo jazz piano - YouTube

Welcome to the bottom end.

 

[PlungerModerno]

Here are some Super sites for info, lessons and such:


http://www.studybass.com/

http://scottsbasslessons.com/

For links:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/music-theory-general-instruction-links-56761/


And Talkbass itself is helpful...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f21/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/pacmans-sure-fire-scale-practice-method-50170/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/lot-free-lessons-how-tos-other-stuff-me-481548/

Good luck... I recently started the "Hal Leonard Method" books by Ed Friedland, super stuff, with audio CD.
You can get online lessons and such if there is nobody close to you (like me).

P.S. relax while you practice, and keep a regular schedule, A little often beats a lot occasionally.

 

[tangentmusic]

Way to go... You sound like a natural born bass player.
My advice would be to start playing with a band, or at least a drummer to work on timing, pocket & groove

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Little more stuff. The following was a big WOW for me.

Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box.

Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

Song is using the key of C. Place your R on a C note.
How about the C at the 3rd fret 3rd string.

You next chord will probably be the F chord. Where is there a F note on your fretboard? How about right above that C note.

Next chord will probably be the G chord where is there a G note? How about right below the C.

Is that neat or what.

Song called out to be in D look for a D on the 3rd string. Where is the G and A note? Yep, piece of cake.

Place your I tonic root note on the 3rd string and the IV and V are always right above and right below your tonic chord note.

Have fun.

 

[1958Bassman]

Let's try this again. I started a post but it got fairly lengthy, I'll try to just keep to the point here. I bought my first bass and in the three days I've owned it I feel I've learned more and/or understand it better than guitar.(I've played guitar on and off for 15 years, tried teaching myself but couldn't grasp the theory and never bothered to learn the basics). Bass feels so much more natural and I feel I am actually learning now. I slowed down compared to guitar, am learning the fretboard, learned the major scale pattern. My question is where do I go from here? We don't have many options for teachers around here and I want to keep moving forward until I can find a teacher. I need a push in the right direction, any advice would be appreciated.

Playing bass is a really good way to get a different perspective on the music and how the bass parts fit with the key of the songs.

If youp know the major scale pattern, get to know where it fits in all of the main keys, learn the minor scale, diminished and dominant and your arpeggios.

Also, learn to always know where the 1 is.

 

[neo27ny]

Here's a question, maybe dumb and/or elementary, I don't know but I haven't pieced it together from what I've picked up so far. Do all the modes and scales relate to eachother. Say you have the C major scale, which is the Ionian mode correct? The natural minor scale would be the Aeolian mode? Each mode IS a different named scale or am I looking at it wrong? I confused the *bleep* out of myself when I started guitar years ago by not learning the theory and basics, now I am kicking myself.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm right could someone post a list of the modes to it's corresponding scale please. MalcolmAmos posted a list of the scales and grouped the modes into major and minor above, but I was wondering which is which. I'm just trying to build a picture in my mind of the relationship between everything. Thanks again, everyone has been very helpful.

 

[LayDownABoogie]

Here's a question, maybe dumb and/or elementary, I don't know but I haven't pieced it together from what I've picked up so far. Do all the modes and scales relate to eachother. Say you have the C major scale, which is the Ionian mode correct? The natural minor scale would be the Aeolian mode? Each mode IS a different named scale or am I looking at it wrong? I confused the *bleep* out of myself when I started guitar years ago by not learning the theory and basics, now I am kicking myself.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm right could someone post a list of the modes to it's corresponding scale please. MalcolmAmos posted a list of the scales and grouped the modes into major and minor above, but I was wondering which is which. I'm just trying to build a picture in my mind of the relationship between everything. Thanks again, everyone has been very helpful.

Trying to get your head around that now will probably confuse you even more... But if your keen, search modes on this forum, there has been plenty of conversation (hmmm, or often argument) on that subject.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Here's a question, maybe dumb and/or elementary, I don't know but I haven't pieced it together from what I've picked up so far. Do all the modes and scales relate to each other. Say you have the C major scale, which is the Ionian mode correct? The natural minor scale would be the Aeolian mode? Each mode IS a different named scale or am I looking at it wrong?

Yes Ionian is the same notes as the major scale and Aeolian has the same notes as the natural minor scale. All modes are taken from the major scale. The major scale is the parent scale, the other 6 modes - as Scott Devine says - "are brothers" - have the same DNA, part of the same family. Wars have been fought over saying modes are just "different scales". But, yes, that is one way of looking at it.

I confused the *bleep* out of myself when I started guitar years ago by not learning the theory and basics, now I am kicking myself.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm right could someone post a list of the modes to it's corresponding scale please. MalcolmAmos posted a list of the scales and grouped the modes into major and minor above, but I was wondering which is which. I'm just trying to build a picture in my mind of the relationship between everything. Thanks again, everyone has been very helpful.

OK from the top. Why do you want to use a mode? The major scale or the natural minor scale will probably do everything you want or need. O'h I see you want to know what all the fuss is about. IMO modes do not fit in with what we do until you start getting some lead solo breaks, or need to add something melodic into your bass lines. But here is the story.....

There are two ways of looking at modes. The Relative mode way is where the notes of all the modes stay the same and you walk the key. For example:
Ionian C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
Dorian.....D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D
Phrygian......E, F, G, A, B, C, D, D etc. etc.
Most learn this way first as it is easy to teach. Easy to do therefore it is easy to make modes, the problem come when we start trying to use modes in the songs we play.

There is another way of looking at and using modes and this way is called the Parallel modes. Here the key stays the same and the notes change. I found this way "much easier to use". For example. The song is in the key of G. If I want to use use a Mixolydian lick, instead of counting up what note I need to start on, I just stay in G and flat the b7 note of my lick. Now I can use something like that on the fly.

The major modes use the major scale as home base.....
Ionian - R, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Lydian- R, 2, 3, #4. 5, 6, 7 one note different. Question now is why would you want to use Lydian over the major scale?
Mixolydian - R-2-3-4-5-6-b7 again one note different. Why and when would you use Mixolydian?

The minor modes use the natural minor scale as home base... And the natural minor scale takes the major scale and flats the 3, 6 & 7. So.......
Aeolian - R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Dorian - R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 takes the natural minor scale and sharps the b6 to a natural 6. One note difference.
Phrygian - R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 again one note difference, the b2.
Locrian - R-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7 now here Locrian being the diminished mode will flat the 2 and the 5. OK that's how to make the mode. Question now is when would you use Dorian and when would you use Phrygian?

So want to use the Lydian mode - sharp the 4th note of the major scale.
Want to use the Dorian mode - Flat the 3 and 7 of the major scale, or if you like.... picture the natural minor scale of R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 and sharp the b6 to a natural 6.

Now the big question. When do we use modes with our bass. In my case I very seldom use modes. The lead electric or pedal steel take the lead breaks in the band I play with so I do not get lead solo breaks. IMO modes are used for solo work, or fill work in your bass line. I play ole time country and the bass line is root five with chromatic runs to the next chord. There is no room or reason for me to use a mode. The major scale or the Natural minor scale do what I need.

Watch Scott Devine's video on practicing the modes.

Good luck, it is rather simple, however, we enjoy making it complicated. I think the main reason is there are two ways of looking at modes, Relative and then Parallel. Right at first you do not know which way the person answering your question is coming from.


Good Luck.

P.S. OK one more thing. Why would you want to use Dorian? Each mode is said to have a different feel, sound or mood. Dorian is an attractive minor sound. Aeolian is also minor and it is said to have a sad sound. I do not hear all that sadness, but, I do hear minor and the two are somewhat different. Now Phrygian is also minor and it does sound different, I hear a Middle Eastern sound with Phrygian. If you want to use a mode pick the one that will give the mood you are looking for. O'h yes, and forget about using a different mode over each chord in the progression, in fact, if you use modes use them over a modal vamp. Another story for another string.

Lydian is so much like the major scale I do not hear all that much difference so seldom if ever use it. Mixolydian with it's b7 works great over Dominant seven blues progressions, however, if used over a modal vamp (one or two chords) I hear a Latin, Mexican sound - and understand where I hear Mexican that may not be what you hear. The major scale gives an up beat sound if that is what you want just use the major scale.

If you think a mode is called for - decide which one gives the sound you want, make sure you are playing it over a modal vamp (whole other story) and enjoy what happens.

Go back and read my original post (#2) in this string and then read over this a couple of times. Good luck on your modal journey.