Double Bass NYC and improvised western music (Jazz) "evolution" -> question.

[SteSte]

Short preamble to frame the question:
Personally i think that what we call jazz its the most epic change in music happened ever and i think that what we call "jazz" influenced the entire planet earth music and will do for centuries (think at rock or pop also in europe or asia).
US is the place where jazz was mainly developed since centuries ago if we include the afro-american influence of course.
Some cities was and are crucial for developing music (new orleans, chicago, detroit and nyc for example), jazz it is played in big cities and it is a live music.
Jazz important transmission was mainly oral.
The exchange of the experience from musician-to-musician was the key to develop a live "new styles" and the field of fertile divulgation.
The places where musicians are talking and playing are the venues inside the city, where they do jam session and where the sat at a table talking freely toghether.
They say that nyc was and maybe is the jazz mecca.

3 QUESTION (finally....! sorry):
1) What happen to the music developement if a city like NYC become a place where only super rich people (and musicians) can stay or can afford (like now)?
2 ) How this class situation can affect jazz music developement in general?
3 ) Can this nyc social class situation will influence (or stop) the developing of "some different ideas-styles" away from expensive super technical high level fancy jazz school?

Think at loft era on the 70's or think at the pre rudolph giuliani post hard bop period.
See this:
Bradley's: An Oral History of a Hallowed Hang - JazzTimes

Ciao from Rome, Italy.

 

[Don Hergert]

To me, these questions are made even more complex because there isn't just one kind of jazz. Some kinds date back to the late 1800s (ragtime => early jazz). Plus there are city-based jazz differences. It's really a matrix of answers depending on the time and location.

The book that really helped me get into the social aspects of jazz is The Autobiography of Pops Foster. Lots of good stuff there, especially for double bassists who love jazz and have a bend toward sociology.

 

[SteSte]

To me, these questions are made even more complex because there isn't just one kind of jazz. Some kinds date back to the late 1800s (ragtime => early jazz). Plus there are city-based jazz differences. It's really a matrix of answers depending on the time and location.

The book that really helped me get into the social aspects of jazz is The Autobiography of Pops Foster. Lots of good stuff there, especially for double bassists who love jazz and have a bend toward sociology.

i will read that book , thanks a lot

 

[G Aichele]

Jazz (like blues) has always been most alive on the edges, in the in-betweens. If such edge-places no longer exist in some cities, then jazz will live elsewhere.

 

[SteSte]

Jazz (like blues) has always been most alive on the edges, in the in-betweens. If such edge-places no longer exist in some cities, then jazz will live elsewhere.

No dubt! I was only curious on what talkbass readers (musicians) think about...
Imagine that most of the more 'influencing and trending' jazz musicians (records also) are coming from musicians living in the nyc arena (venues, some studied there if not berklee and they live there).
I'm just curious on how this will influence the aspect of the music.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Short preamble to frame the question:
Personally i think that what we call jazz its the most epic change in music happened ever and i think that what we call "jazz" influenced the entire planet earth music and will do for centuries (think at rock or pop also in europe or asia).
US is the place where jazz was mainly developed since centuries ago if we include the afro-american influence of course.
Some cities was and are crucial for developing music (new orleans, chicago, detroit and nyc for example), jazz it is played in big cities and it is a live music.
Jazz important transmission was mainly oral.
The exchange of the experience from musician-to-musician was the key to develop a live "new styles" and the field of fertile divulgation.
The places where musicians are talking and playing are the venues inside the city, where they do jam session and where the sat at a table talking freely toghether.
They say that nyc was and maybe is the jazz mecca.

3 QUESTION (finally....! sorry):
1) What happen to the music developement if a city like NYC become a place where only super rich people (and musicians) can stay or can afford (like now)?
2 ) How this class situation can affect jazz music developement in general?
3 ) Can this nyc social class situation will influence (or stop) the developing of "some different ideas-styles" away from expensive super technical high level fancy jazz school?

Think at loft era on the 70's or think at the pre rudolph giuliani post hard bop period.
See this:
Bradley's: An Oral History of a Hallowed Hang - JazzTimes

Ciao from Rome, Italy.

David Liebman told me 25+ years ago, that there was a more supportive environment for creative music in Europe than NYC, and recommended moving there. I assume this was based on many factors, affordability, quality of musicians, open and interested audiences, and even government support for the arts.

 

[GlenParks]

Hip Hop.

 

[buldog5151bass]

NYC was the mecca of everything. More people, more development. Jazz has plenty of roots in rural America.

 

[turf3]

Don't forget that most of the early developers of jazz were black, and starting with World War One there was a massive migration of African Americans out of the south to the north where they could live a little more freely. Jazz musicians followed that trend just like other people.

But NYC was NOT the only place where jazz had a community and rich development.

- New Orleans
- Chicago
- Kansas City
- the Southwest (Texas, Oklahoma)
- Detroit
- Philadelphia
- Washington DC

all had vibrant jazz scenes. Of course New York being the largest city in the US by a wide margin would attract the most musicians, probably.

Honestly, you could study this matter your entire life. Read up on the Harlem Renaissance, for example.

 

[Sean Riddle]

We’re at the point right now developmentally that one can find creative musicians and play creative music in most places in the country and world. So I imagine if the economic trends in cities like NYC, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, etc continue unabated we’ll probably witness migration of musicians to far away suburbs near a city (kind of already happening, and I’m doing that) or even the somewhat demise of creative arts in cities in general. The cost of living in NYC plus the ridiculous cost of tuition of most jazz programs seems to be changing the makeup of young musicians staying in NYC.
If the great migration didn’t end in NYC, I’m positive jazz would’ve survived easily, but possibly developed differently or behind. I think the cultural melting pot nature of NYC helped nurture a lot of creativity and new ideas in the scene there. I don’t what would’ve happened if black musicians didn’t set up a Mecca in NYC, but it’s definitely interesting to see.
Also Don’t forget LA has offered a lot to the development of jazz. A lot of BeBoppers loved playing on Central Avenue in the 40s and 50s because they found the crowds so welcoming. And a lot of the stylistic revolutions in jazz would not have happened without LA. Do you think Ornette Coleman could’ve developed what he did had he been in NYC? Personally I doubt it knowing how polarized the reaction to the debut of his quartet at the 5 Spot. And LA gave us Mingus, Dolphy, LaFaro, amongst other musicians.
While I’m biased since I live near LA and play there fairly often, I feel like LA is becoming a hotspot for creative music, composed and improvised, and is going to keep growing and innovating.

 

[SteSte]

We’re at the point right now developmentally that one can find creative musicians and play creative music in most places in the country and world. So I imagine if the economic trends in cities like NYC, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, etc continue unabated we’ll probably witness migration of musicians to far away suburbs near a city (kind of already happening, and I’m doing that) or even the somewhat demise of creative arts in cities in general. The cost of living in NYC plus the ridiculous cost of tuition of most jazz programs seems to be changing the makeup of young musicians staying in NYC.
If the great migration didn’t end in NYC, I’m positive jazz would’ve survived easily, but possibly developed differently or behind. I think the cultural melting pot nature of NYC helped nurture a lot of creativity and new ideas in the scene there. I don’t what would’ve happened if black musicians didn’t set up a Mecca in NYC, but it’s definitely interesting to see.
Also Don’t forget LA has offered a lot to the development of jazz. A lot of BeBoppers loved playing on Central Avenue in the 40s and 50s because they found the crowds so welcoming. And a lot of the stylistic revolutions in jazz would not have happened without LA. Do you think Ornette Coleman could’ve developed what he did had he been in NYC? Personally I doubt it knowing how polarized the reaction to the debut of his quartet at the 5 Spot. And LA gave us Mingus, Dolphy, LaFaro, amongst other musicians.
While I’m biased since I live near LA and play there fairly often, I feel like LA is becoming a hotspot for creative music, composed and improvised, and is going to keep growing and innovating.

Thanks a lot! Very interesting points in your writing. I like what you say it's deep.
And by the way this is happening as you wrote also here in Italy. It seems that 'jazz' now has becomes bourgeois , including the listeners, more and more, young musicians are all super virtuoso, they sounds great at 15 yo like they are complete mature arrived musicians , but they do not add real deep things in natural 'honest' risky way, my impression is that lot of them is not using the technique as a simple tool to manage the music materials. I'm not pessimistic it's just a consideration, i really trust in the creative human being and this for sure will be not a problem for the survival of jazz nor creative improvised music. The pillars and the roots of jazz are really linked to the human history with his troubles and happiness.