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Double Bass Oil Varnish vs. Spirit varnish

#2
834federal said:
Is there a big difference between oil and spirits?
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From what I can tell it's a mistake to think in terms of "this" or "that."
You can formulate oil, spirit or poly in an endless variety of ways with different degrees of plasticity and cure-time. You can apply any of them in any degree of thickness.

And different people can have different answers to the question of whether there's a "big" difference between a thick, gloppy oil finish and a thick, bartop-smooth poly finish.

834federal said:
Does either finish affect the sound in one way or another?
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In one corner, the Reigning World Champion: "Everything affects sound."

At the other end of the same room, in my ignorant opinion other things matter more. Strings matter more. Fingerboard planing matters more. Size of the bass matters more. Flatback or roundback matters more. Soundpost placement matters more. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BASS -- how much it gets played, how hard it gets played, how many repairs it has needed, how well those repairs were done -- matters more. Countless other things matter more.

If you can listen to a recording and consistently pick out what kind of finish the bass is wearing you have truly special ears.
 
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#5
Asked my wife, a violin maker. She says some people talk about Strad's oil varnish being the ne plus ultra, but she does not believe there is any difference, and they did not teach them that there was any difference in violin-making school. If I remember, I'll ask a number of makers I jam with 2d week each month.

If there is ANY difference, I would imagine the difference to be minischule, and - as Sam observes - far outweighed by any variation in wood quality, carving, etc. Good luck trying to get any 2 instruments which are IDENTICAL in all respects save oil vs spirit varnish! ;)

I'd be interested if you were willing to tell us more about the basses you are looking at, how you feel about their playability, sound - AND appearance.
 
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#6
When I bought my then-new bass in 2010, my luthier told me that it has a spirit varnish, and that it would be more delicate than an oil varnish. It has taken its share of dings playing jazz gigs over the past 15 years, some due to minor collisions on the bandstand such as a cymbal tipping over onto it once, and a music stand another time.

But I couldn't tell you anything about the sound, since it's one varnish on one bass. If all things were equal sound-wise, I'd take the more durable finish.
 
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#7
Ed S said:
... Good luck trying to get any 2 instruments which are IDENTICAL in all respects save oil vs spirit varnish! ...
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fdeck said:
... since it's one varnish on one bass.
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I think ^^these^^ are great answers.

Unless we're actively working as a double bass luthier and handling 20 to 50 or so double basses a year -- and are keeping track of the finishes involved and how they sound -- we probably cannot accurately compare their finishes for sound. Most of us mere "players" only intimately deal with a handful of basses at the most, in our life.

Of all the dozen or so wooden stringed instruments I have sitting around the house -- ignoring their finishes -- none of them are exactly the same as any other. And even if they were the same and if they had the same finish, there are always possible differences in thickness and mixture of the finish.

As such, when I think about an ideal finish, I think about how well and how long it protects the instrument, and how easy it is to touch up. At least in my experience, tone of a well done finish is one of the most subtle influencers.
 
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#8
Don Hergert said:
I think ^^these^^ are great answers.

Unless we're actively working as a double bass luthier and handling 20 to 50 or so double basses a year -- and are keeping track of the finishes involved and how they sound -- we probably cannot accurately compare their finishes for sound. Most of us mere "players" only intimately deal with a handful of basses at the most, in our life.

Of all the dozen or so wooden stringed instruments I have sitting around the house -- ignoring their finishes -- none of them are exactly the same as any other. And even if they were the same and if they had the same finish, there are always possible differences in thickness and mixture of the finish.

As such, when I think about an ideal finish, I think about how well and how long it protects the instrument, and how easy it is to touch up. At least in my experience, tone of a well done finish is one of the most subtle influencers.
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Thanks for the reply!
Ed S said:
Asked my wife, a violin maker. She says some people talk about Strad's oil varnish being the ne plus ultra, but she does not believe there is any difference, and they did not teach them that there was any difference in violin-making school. If I remember, I'll ask a number of makers I jam with 2d week each month.

If there is ANY difference, I would imagine the difference to be minischule, and - as Sam observes - far outweighed by any variation in wood quality, carving, etc. Good luck trying to get any 2 instruments which are IDENTICAL in all respects save oil vs spirit varnish! ;)

I'd be interested if you were willing to tell us more about the basses you are looking at, how you feel about their playability, sound - AND appearance.
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Thanks for the reply. Sure- I'm looking at the top level Eastman basses. The

VB928 Raul Emiliani has the oil and the VB702GR Wilhelm Klier has the spirits​

 
#9
834federal said:
Thanks for the reply!

Thanks for the reply. Sure- I'm looking at the top level Eastman basses. The

VB928 Raul Emiliani has the oil and the VB702GR Wilhelm Klier has the spirits​

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With both being Eastman gambas, you likely have a better chance of them being quite similar to each other in all other respects. It would be interesting to hear Eastman explain what they feel is the difference between those 2 - or the other oil-gamba, other than the finish. How are they built differently or how the materials differ with what effect on their sound.

Do you have both available to compare side-by-side? And even multiple versions of the same model?

At that price range, I assume you've compared them to many other options. What led you to resolve on the 2 Eastmans?

Sorry to be so nosey! Good luck with your purchase! Please let us know how it goes.
 
#10
If you're looking at high quality instruments then they won't have a thick, heavy finish which might dampen their sound.

In that case, you might think about ease of finish repair. Generally spirit finishes repair more easily. However, they damage a little more easily. I'm not sure if that is really helpful though - it's the nature of a bass to collect dings over time, and constantly repairing them would be expensive. My own bass spent a hard 20 years on tour before I got it and that shows, but it still sounds good and 'restoration' would be expensive and pointless, as I've added to its character just by playing and carrying it :)

If you can play both, buy the one you like best and to hell with the finish.
 
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#11
ProfChris said:
If you can play both, buy the one you like best and to hell with the finish.
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Definitely the route to go. Period- full stop.

Gotta say, tho - I admit to being a mediocre bassist who might tend towards the superficial. The examples I see on the Eastman site are VERY different looking. I'm sure both are beautiful looking and sounding. But speaking personally, if I was having a hard time deciding between the 2, my preference for an antiqued dark bass or a highly figured light-colored bass might factor into my decision.

I recall when I was buying my banjo - accompanied by my wife (and my dog!). After playing multiple models over several hours, I had it down to 2 - both by the same maker (Pisgah - since at least ONE of you - Don - will be curious! ;)). After an additional eternity spent dithering over the 2 finalists, my wife finally said, "That one (the Possum) is prettier, and that is the one I want to see out in my home!" So that is the one I bought, and I have been happy with the choice ever since! :D
 
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#12
Ed S said:
With both being Eastman gambas, you likely have a better chance of them being quite similar to each other in all other respects. It would be interesting to hear Eastman explain what they feel is the difference between those 2 - or the other oil-gamba, other than the finish. How are they built differently or how the materials differ with what effect on their sound.

Do you have both available to compare side-by-side? And even multiple versions of the same model?

At that price range, I assume you've compared them to many other options. What led you to resolve on the 2 Eastmans?

Sorry to be so nosey! Good luck with your purchase! Please let us know how it goes.
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FYI they aren't necessarily both gamba style. I've tried out a violin cornered VB928 as well.
 
#13
Bitters said:
FYI they aren't necessarily both gamba style. I've tried out a violin cornered VB928 as well.
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Thx for the correction. I was going from the Eastman page. They pictured both as gamba, but when I checked details, that said violin-cornered was available. So now we have to resurrect the discussion of the astounding impact of violin vs gamba corners on sound... ;)
 
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#16
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Violin cornered basses with spirit varnish project a more articulate, detailed sound, and gamba cornered basses with oil varnish blend better.
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I had mine made with violin corners on the top bout and gamba on the bottom, with oil on the front and spirit on the back. Best of both worlds! Funny, but it still sounds like $hit when I play it! :D
 
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