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Double Bass Old Wine in a New Bottle (rosin recycling tutorial)

1. From your previous experiments, it sounds like a 50/50 blend will yield the best results. While two monolithic melts are possible, I have new cakes of both rosins. In the past in my less science-y "experiments" usually involving a hotter than enjoyable day where the rosin(s) have melted and reformed of their own will I have noticed an improvement over their previous state (old cake of rosin pre-melt) but the new cake wins every time.

2. The Kolstein AW is in the Silicone instead of their previous foil wrap. I am not sure what year they made that switch, but it was purchased very shortly after the switch because sometimes the same wine in a new bottle is exciting. It has some dried out surface cracking, and while usable is in the eye of the user, I replaced it because I haven't been happy with it for a while now and found myself in a shop that happened to have some. I would put it closer to unusable than deteriorated on my personal scale, but the needle might shift for others. The Pops has melted on its own more times than I can count, and was pretty much in a molasses like state for a good part of the summer this summer rendering it unusable for climate reasons, not longevity reasons. It had the feel of old Pops in the spring before we got hit with the humidity/heat we experienced all summer and was getting a little flaky, but is back to solid again now.

3. I will be removing the outer layer of the Kolstein. It seems to be a bit cracked all around the cake and a bit brittle on the outside, but I have taken the top off once or twice to expose some better stuff inside since it was purchased. Because of the Pops continual melting cycle this summer, (did I mention it got hot here?) the top layer does not appear to be noticeably different than the new cake, although performance has suffered.

4. The bows have been played by me previously. They are all K Holtz fibreglass bows, which are the bows that come with the Eastman Strings student level outfits. These are the bows for the instruments I teach on at work, most of which required a rehair which is why I have the opportunity to rehair them from the same pound of hair, and to rosin them exclusively with whatever rosin I chose. The sticks themselves are fibreglass and identical (to the factory's quality control standards) with ebony frogs. I have not noticed a significant difference between frogs, as they seem to be made from a very similar grade of ebony so there is little if any weight difference. Short of synthetic frogs, this is the closest I'm going to get to identical bows to experiment with without a significant investment on my behalf.

5. There will be time for cooling. While the Silicone cup the Kolstein is currently in would make a great container for the new pour, the cakes are still relatively large so I might have more rosin than container. I will see if I have something else at my disposal in case I end up with more rosin than container.

6. I will try to keep the magic to a minimum. If I end up burning myself with hot rosin or getting it all over my stove/kitchen, I cannot guarantee the language that follows will be entirely secular.
 
Sorry your results were "underwhelming". Maybe try a mix of 50/50, Old/New Pops?
I guess it's like they say "YMMV".
I would hope others would give this a try - in the interest of Science.
Thanks.

You misunderstand. The cake is a year away from being a teenager (2004). I think you can only get so much blood from a stone.

HOWEVER, I tried it about 20 minutes after the pour, not the 24 hours you describe. I'll try it again tomorrow and see if there's any difference.
 
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1. From your previous experiments, it sounds like a 50/50 blend will yield the best results. While two monolithic melts are possible, I have new cakes of both rosins. In the past in my less science-y "experiments" usually involving a hotter than enjoyable day where the rosin(s) have melted and reformed of their own will I have noticed an improvement over their previous state (old cake of rosin pre-melt) but the new cake wins every time.

2. The Kolstein AW is in the Silicone instead of their previous foil wrap. I am not sure what year they made that switch, but it was purchased very shortly after the switch because sometimes the same wine in a new bottle is exciting. It has some dried out surface cracking, and while usable is in the eye of the user, I replaced it because I haven't been happy with it for a while now and found myself in a shop that happened to have some. I would put it closer to unusable than deteriorated on my personal scale, but the needle might shift for others. The Pops has melted on its own more times than I can count, and was pretty much in a molasses like state for a good part of the summer this summer rendering it unusable for climate reasons, not longevity reasons. It had the feel of old Pops in the spring before we got hit with the humidity/heat we experienced all summer and was getting a little flaky, but is back to solid again now.

3. I will be removing the outer layer of the Kolstein. It seems to be a bit cracked all around the cake and a bit brittle on the outside, but I have taken the top off once or twice to expose some better stuff inside since it was purchased. Because of the Pops continual melting cycle this summer, (did I mention it got hot here?) the top layer does not appear to be noticeably different than the new cake, although performance has suffered.

4. The bows have been played by me previously. They are all K Holtz fibreglass bows, which are the bows that come with the Eastman Strings student level outfits. These are the bows for the instruments I teach on at work, most of which required a rehair which is why I have the opportunity to rehair them from the same pound of hair, and to rosin them exclusively with whatever rosin I chose. The sticks themselves are fibreglass and identical (to the factory's quality control standards) with ebony frogs. I have not noticed a significant difference between frogs, as they seem to be made from a very similar grade of ebony so there is little if any weight difference. Short of synthetic frogs, this is the closest I'm going to get to identical bows to experiment with without a significant investment on my behalf.

5. There will be time for cooling. While the Silicone cup the Kolstein is currently in would make a great container for the new pour, the cakes are still relatively large so I might have more rosin than container. I will see if I have something else at my disposal in case I end up with more rosin than container.

6. I will try to keep the magic to a minimum. If I end up burning myself with hot rosin or getting it all over my stove/kitchen, I cannot guarantee the language that follows will be entirely secular.

This is all very good. I await your review of the results.
I've found that Pops (NOT a brand I've ever used by itself - too WET), seems to enhance the performance of the second (DRY?) rosin, at least in the 2 batches I've cooked, and in my SoCal climate.
FYI - Regarding containers - I keep a supply of aerosol spray "caps" around - clean them with alcohol to remove any impurities - they are about the size of a standard cake, and can be cut-down with a hot x-acto knife to expose the rosin after cooling. (see my earlier photo-tutorial, if necessary.)
Good luck and be safe!
 
...I have the opportunity to rehair them from the same pound of hair, and to rosin them exclusively with whatever rosin I chose...

Mike, what is your procedure for applying rosin to new hair? Do you prime with powdered rosin or just hit it with a bit and play it in, applying more as needed? I remember some mention of this in a earlier thread, but I'm not sure when that was and whether you were involved.
 
For non-bass bows, I do use powdered rosin. I find that even with a nice cake of rosin for upper strings, it seems to take forever to get some rosin on there, and then you inevitably have to reapply, and end up with more than you want in one part of the bow or another. I check with the person I am doing the rehair for and apply sparingly, but most players do not enjoy that initial rosin process.

For bass bows, it really depends on the client. Some prefer no rosin to be added to their bows at all, some prefer powdered rosin, some prefer a specific type (which I will apply if I have it at my disposal) others have all sorts of requests. Sometimes applying just bass rosin can be troublesome, as you often get a small section of hair that accepts the rosin first before it spreads to the rest of the ribbon, so apply, play, reapply, play, reapply, etc. is the approach if I'm going exclusively with bass rosin.

For the sake of the experiment, I will be using exclusively the rosins I am experimenting with, to try to keep things as controlled as possible.
 
So, I scraped, melted, and poured today.

Scraping was super easy after the rosin has been in the freezer. Before when I've tried to remove the top layer from a cake that had got old, it turned into a sticky mess that was all over a blade etc. On the frozen cake, it just scraped right off.

Melting was uneventful. I made a foil cup out of aluminum foil and it went right on the stove. I decided to skip the "gently pulverize" step, as the rosin was going to melt together anyway. I stirred with a toothpick until the two rosins were melted and combined, then poured from there.

The pour was super easy. Most of it fit into the old Kolstein silicone cup, and because I didn't have any aerosol can lids or anything like that, I put some wax paper in the old Pops cup, and lined it with that. The wax paper did not want to separate from the rosin to expose a side but it is still slightly warm. Hopefully when it cools fully tomorrow that won't be an issue.

I have a bunch of repair work to do in the shop, so it will likely be the first of the week before I get to really play on the rosins and form an opinion.
 
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Inigo+Montoya.jpg
 
After a week of playing on the bows and rosins in question, here comes the update!

It is definitely fall in my part of Canada right now. Temperatures have been down around 10-15°C for the last week, sometimes cooler at night. This is quite a contrast from a week or two ago when it was 20-25°C if not warmer, and Pops was a whole lot softer. That is to say that this is the time of year when I would personally be coming off of a summer of Kolstein AW, and transitioning to Pops. I find they perform fairly similar at this time of year in my climate.

That would be the first major observation. The Pops has a little more sizzle to the sound right now, where the Kolstein AW is a little bit cleaner sounding, for lack of a better description. They both have a nice grab to them and are doing what I want/expect from them. Otherwise, the two control rosins feel quite similar in these conditions which is why I use them as a summer/winter pair. I am not noticing a difference in sound/tone between the two. As mentioned they are on as close to identical bows with as close to identical rehairs as I can produce under reasonable circumstances. I have not taken recordings and arranged a double blind listening or anything to that extreme, but any significant difference would likely be in my performance instead of the rosins themselves.

How does the new/hybrid measure up? For some context there as well, it was made from two cakes that I decided were past my personal acceptable age. The Kolstein AW was cracking on the surface and much harder than the new cake I purchased, and while the Pops has melted on its own several times over this summer, it was well past time for a new cake of that. I do not subscribe to the new cake of Pops once a month, but for my taste it does have a shorter life than some of the other rosins out there. The hybrid is significantly better than the two cakes it was made from. It feels and acts like a brand new cake, where the other two would have just been thrown out at this point.

Is it better than Pops or Kolstein AW? If I have to pause to think about that, I would say it is very close. It seems like the best of both worlds at a time of year where both rosins on their own aren't really in their moment to shine. It feels great, has a little less of that Pops sizzle/grit that some love and some love to hate, is very articulate, and so far I'm quite happy with it.

Would I do it again? Yes. I started with two cakes of rosin that were beyond what I would consider their usable lifespan, and ended up with a cake and a bit of "new" rosin. Between throwing them in the freezer, scraping some of the outside layer away, putting it in a makeshift tinfoil pot, stirring, pouring, and letting it set/cool, 15 minutes of actively doing something time is still likely being pretty generous. It was a quick and simple process, and I got a new cake of rosin out of it that I'm very happy with. If I had not already purchased new replacements for the existing cakes, I would have held off and been happy with just this one for now.

Life changing experience? Super secret new formula of rosin that is going to solve all of my technique issues? No. But it was an easy process with a satisfying outcome. If you're on the fence about giving it a go, I would say go for it.
 
The hybrid is significantly better than the two cakes it was made from. It feels and acts like a brand new cake,
This is significant, if not life changing. IMO.
Would I do it again? Yes. I started with two cakes of rosin that were beyond what I would consider their usable lifespan, and ended up with a cake and a bit of "new" rosin.
Excellent work and commentary, Mike!
Let's see if others will try this and report.
Thanks.
 
Hat Tip to Jon Stefaniak (below) - he's using mini-muffin silicone cups for rosin.

Hmm. Very hi tech seeming, but nothing you couldn't do on your own.
I live in a fairly humid climate, so I buy a cake once a year. I cut it in half, and half stays at home, the other half at work. I put it in a little silicone cup.
I put a little bit of sponge at the bottom of the container. A couple drops of water on it is more than enough to keep it humidified in dry weather.
View attachment 957646 View attachment 957647 View attachment 957648 View attachment 957649

I bought a 24 unit "pan", liberated 1 unit, and just melted/poured/cooled a former hybrid batch of 4:3 Pops/Nymanns.
I'll see how easy it is to use, tomorrow. This looks promising:
photo(233).JPG
photo(232).JPG
photo(231).JPG
 
Alll-righty, then.

The Good - This cup material, silicone, is a modern-day miracle - And I'm not just referring to Breast Augmentation. The rosin does NOT stick to it AT ALL. It instantly releases and can be easily folded down (!), (see below), so that the cake surface is exposed and can be applied to the hair.
Also - I now have 23 additional cups available for further rosin-research/Science, all for less than $10.00. (I should live so long!)

The Not So Good - This cup shape is a bit wide and shallow, and takes some getting used to while applying to the bow hair. Not unmanageable, just different - I'd prefer a taller, deeper shape, with a smaller diameter. This shallow shape creates a larger exposed surface area, and so I'll need to be hyper-vigilant in keeping it covered with Saran Wrap to minimize the inevitable drying-out process.

Thanks.
photo(234).JPG
 
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Alll-righty, then.

The Good - This cup material, silicone, is a modern-day miracle - And I'm not just referring to Breast Augmentation. The rosin does NOT stick to it AT ALL. It instantly releases and can be easily folded down (!), (see below), so that the cake surface is exposed and can be applied to the hair.
Also - I now have 23 additional cups available for further rosin-research/Science, all for less than $10.00. (I should live so long!)

The Not So Good - This cup shape is a bit wide and shallow, and takes some getting used to while applying to the bow hair. Not unmanageable, just different - I'd prefer a taller, deeper shape, with a smaller diameter. This shallow shape creates a larger exposed surface area, and so I'll need to be hyper-vigilant in keeping it covered with Saran Wrap to minimize the inevitable drying-out process.

Thanks.
View attachment 964390

You know, you can buy silicone and create any shape you choose. I see silicone cup making in your future! Too shallow! Too deep! Just right! Maybe a bit wider...
 
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I wanted to bump this thread, because it contains very good advice.

I have several old cakes of rosin lying around, and the cake of Oak that I actually use is starting to get a little stale after about 4 years.

I tried the rubbing alcohol trick described on the sticky thread with so-so results; the rosin softened up, but it seemed to be as hard as ever after a few days.

I remembered reading this thread about melting rosin a while back, & decided to try it. My technique is slightly different, so I'll describe.

I emptied out a tea candle tin and placed it in my oven at 135 degrees. I placed it in a pie tin to contain any spills.

I put a chunk of really old, brittle Pop's in it, and it was melted enough to stir with a toothpick in maybe 15 - 20 minutes. I added more rosin, a bit at a time until the candle tin was full of melted rosin. My final mix was around 59% Oak, 25% Kolstein soft, and 25% Pops

After cooling, I found the revived 'hybrid' rosin to be a very nice texture.

I was a bit intimidated by melting rosin at first, then I decided to try the candle tin and low oven temp. This is super-easy and produces a very usable product. IMHO, this is much preferred to the alcohol method in both results and ease of use.

Thanks to Mr. Lane for opening this door in my mind.

YVMV, etc.
 
I wanted to bump this thread, because it contains very good advice.

I have several old cakes of rosin lying around, and the cake of Oak that I actually use is starting to get a little stale after about 4 years.

I tried the rubbing alcohol trick described on the sticky thread with so-so results; the rosin softened up, but it seemed to be as hard as ever after a few days.

I remembered reading this thread about melting rosin a while back, & decided to try it. My technique is slightly different, so I'll describe.

I emptied out a tea candle tin and placed it in my oven at 135 degrees. I placed it in a pie tin to contain any spills.

I put a chunk of really old, brittle Pop's in it, and it was melted enough to stir with a toothpick in maybe 15 - 20 minutes. I added more rosin, a bit at a time until the candle tin was full of melted rosin. My final mix was around 59% Oak, 25% Kolstein soft, and 25% Pops

After cooling, I found the revived 'hybrid' rosin to be a very nice texture.

I was a bit intimidated by melting rosin at first, then I decided to try the candle tin and low oven temp. This is super-easy and produces a very usable product. IMHO, this is much preferred to the alcohol method in both results and ease of use.

Thanks to Mr. Lane for opening this door in my mind.

YVMV, etc.
How are you storing the new rosin ingot?
 
the best rosin cake I have is an old hunk of nymans i melted down and added about a teaspoon of rubbing alchohol into, stir it up and chuck it in the fridge, i've been rationing it for like a year now ;)

I melted together equal "well aged" Pops, and Kolstien and have been using it, happily for some months. Next time, or remelting this batch, I think I will add a little alcohol to the mix and feel what happens. Anyone done this? Hope is to have it be a bit softer for longer.
 
I melted together equal "well aged" Pops, and Kolstien and have been using it, happily for some months. Next time, or remelting this batch, I think I will add a little alcohol to the mix and feel what happens. Anyone done this? Hope is to have it be a bit softer for longer.
For me, it softened it and made it like the best of both worlds, with the dryness and grip of nymans, and the gummy sticky was of a softer rosin, and it doesn't get goopy in warm weather.
The closest I've been able to get to it is mixing weodoft with oak medium, which I'm using currently in the hot and humid California summer