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Double Bass Older people playing bass - my experience

S

SeaMist_au

Aug 28, 2012
121
20
Australia
#1
Hi guys, I am posting this here because my main playing now is with a community orchestra but it could equally apply to jazz techniques.
I started playing after spending about 12 months on an EUB, culminating in me buying a nice Jay Haide double bass.
I had practiced my scales, some pieces etc solo for a while but felt I really needed to play with others in some kind of orchestra. I have Arthritis in both thumbs and numerous physical issues associated with anyone my age ( 60).
This is my experience:

First week, I used my EUB. I came away quite sore. I worked out that this was due to having raised the action of the EUB to make it more arco friendly. It simply put too much of the workload on my left hand.
I was very concerned and went to a physiotherapist for remedial massage, therapies etc.
He identified both my neck & shoulders as the prime source of my problems. My forearm simply needed a bit of basic physio.
I also sought the advice of a teacher to check my posture & safety aspects of playing on the instrument. He 'levelled' me but my technique was basically solid apart fro playing with an unsupported 4th finger......hello simandl.......

Second week I played with a fretless acoustic bass guitar while things healed. My RHS shoulder was sore after that ........more physio....

Third and forth week played with my full upright. No real issues. Except getting the thing in and out and protecting it from countless people wanting to stand on it......not that I am paranoid......much......

Sorry if I ramble but the whole experience is complex.

The physio told me that if you are trying to build strength and resilience that you need to rest between 'training' events. He said that when you do heavy exercise that you get micro tears in your muscles. If you rest them and redo exercise those micro tears will heal (rest) then build more muscle (exercise). If you just exercise without rest then the micro tears won't heal properly and in the end the muscles will break down.
Applying this to bass practice if you are trying to build resilience on the instrument you need to practice maybe every second day, maybe less. How this works with someone trying to build technique AND practice a repertoire escapes me except that if you don't allow for healing time you WILL break down so maybe just go slower in development than you would like might be the best guide.

Combined with this has been physical massage therapy targeting muscles bound up under the tension of increased bass playing activity. After each practice a heat pad is applied to the shoulder then the neck area. That's just the physical side.

Then there is he practical side. It didn't take long to work out that at my age, sitting is better than standing. Trying to get a comfortable position though has not been easy and actually not yet achieved. I bought a high wooden stool. Very comfortable for pizz. Passed my teachers seal of approval and actually did feel good. Unconventionally both feet were up on cross members of he stool. Seriously, worked well, felt good. Until I tried Arco. Then it was totally useless. Simply couldn't reach low enough with the bow to get into the right Arco 'groove' channels.
So teacher suggested I worked lower, with the bass at more of an angle. I cut off the bottom of the stool. Now both feet are on the floor. Arco is now better. Pizz is good, but I am having plenty of trouble stabilising the bass. I have ordered an endpin anchor so hopefully that will help. Also ordering a better stool lol.
In the meantime the second joint in my right thumb has swollen ( not the basal joint where I have known arthritis) so I am taking a small break. Could be over practice but really I shouldn't be relying on right thumb for anything. I do notice though that right thumb seems to figure high in bassist injuries for some indiscernible reason.

On the total plus side my shoulders and neck are actually improving in both flexibility and pain responses. My arthritis hasn't flared. I'm hoping the joint flare ( not painful) in my second RHS thumb joint is due to poor RHS technique caused over concentration on the music notation vs a good free pizz movement.

Time and more consults with my teacher and physiotherapist will tell.

What I am really trying to say with this long ramble that in older age, playing bass, at least for me, is a team effort. Physio, teacher, student and band environment all play their parts. So far though it IS possible :-)

And if anyone else has had a painless (small) swelling on the outside of the second joint of the right thumb........well......just drop me a line lol.
 
#2
My hat's off to you. I think you're very smart enlisting the help you need to get going. I suspect once you build up your strength and dexterity that you'll be able to practice more frequently. I find that I'll take a day away from the bass sometimes and just play the lower four strings of my guitar because it gives me a physical break from the bass and allows me to focus on fingering and lines instead of intonation. Enjoy it! It's an journey.
 
#3
I guess I'm lucky. I have osteoarthritis in all of the joints of both hands, probably from abuse in a career as a diesel mechanic. Where I am lucky, is that playing the double-bass is therapeutic, my hands loosen up when I play. I do warm up exercises before playing, and this seems to help. Oh by the way I am 66.

It sounds like you are on the right track to improving your technique. You might want to talk to your luthier about set up. My basses have a fairly low string height. Most of my playing is arco, pizz would be better if they were a little higher.
 
#5
I'm coming up on 72 and have 9 years of playing and lessons. Have also been playing in a community orchestra for 5 seasons. Intially started on BG but quickly concentrated on double bass. For me, daily exercise - jogging, mild weights, yoga, and good diet is huge. Congrats to the OP for starting 'later in life'. Sounds like you might have a Heberden node on your right thumb DIP joint. Check with your doctor. Not a big deal and but it comes with the territory of osteoarthritis. What you're doing sounds good to me. It's taken me quite a while to become satisfied with my set-up and I also sit when playing. My teachers have been valuable guides to finding more comfort while playing.
 
#6
Welcome to my world - 64, arthritis, some nerve damage, bursitis etc;

Solutions: work out, stretch, never practice for more than 20 minutes at a time; play seated, bass angled out like a cello; low tension strings (Corelli/Jargar/Spiro Solos tuned to Orchestra pitch); use the George Vance/Rabbath approach to playing higher positions on lower strings (so you don't keep reaching back; same with the cello position of the bass - keeps the shoulders level; play seated on a low stool with a yoga block under left foot for balance; German bow... and above all... a small bass!

Louis

PS Solutions = for me; won't nec. work for anyone else
 
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#8
Update: In the complete absence of a local nice adjustable and portable bass stool, I tried a Tama HT741 drum throne with an adjustable backrest & height. Along with the endpin anchor ( take off the rubber stopper first) and a book for the left foot, stability has been achieved at last. You can bow open string with no left hand at all. Plenty of adjustments to make to get here....endpin height, seat height, endpin anchor length but it feels just wonderful now.
 
#10
LouisF said:
Solutions: work out, stretch, never practice for more than 20 minutes at a time; play seated, bass angled out like a cello; low tension strings (Corelli/Jargar/Spiro Solos tuned to Orchestra pitch); use the George Vance/Rabbath approach to playing higher positions on lower strings (so you don't keep reaching back; same with the cello position of the bass - keeps the shoulders level; play seated on a low stool with a yoga block under left foot for balance; German bow... and above all... a small bass!
Click to expand...

+1, just git 'r done - even if it's unorthodox. But also, TBer Eric Jackson encouraged me to attack the arthritis rather than give in to it. So, I no longer need a smaller bass and can play for hours.

BTW, love your restoration project thread.

SeaMist_au said:
...when you do heavy exercise that you get micro tears in your muscles. If you rest them and redo exercise those micro tears will heal (rest) then build more muscle (exercise). If you just exercise without rest then the micro tears won't heal properly and in the end the muscles will break down.
Click to expand...

Yes, excellent! It seems to strengthen entire areas around arthritic joints too.
 
#12
One thing I forgot to add. I was advised by the physio to use heat pads on the shoulders and neck after a practice. I have been religious about that and it has helped quite a bit. Also great in bed at the end of the day. Feels wonderful & I use a wheat bag.
Also deep heat around the thumbs & forearms after practicing and before bed.
In fact anytime something is a little sore.......wonderful :-)
Don't use it on a sudden injury....in that case it needs ice, then a physio.
 
#14
Good thread...I'm 69 and have been playing a lot (bluegrass) for about 15 years.
I think the key for me is to practice a bit regularly to keep up my speed and stay away from marathon jams that last more than 4 hours. That's when I feel sore for a couple of days. No problem with the callouses but the neck, legs and upper left arm let me know I went on for too long.
One thing I have found is that I think I am playing better now than I have ever played. I don't feel like I have to prove anything and so I am enjoying it more. I am still learning new things thanks to Bob Moore and all his recording legacy, Jr Huskey ...and also people like Dennis Crouch always seem to have something new I need to know!
I plan on playing for a few years as long as my health stays good.
My big problem is that the older I get, the heavier my bass seems to get.:hmm:
However, I consider myself very lucky being healthy and still able to play in a band and have a great time.
 
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#15
What your physio told you is correct as far as it goes, but that and 50 cents will get you on the subway. :) Here's a simple way to think about how to practice: Try to practice as much as possible while staying as fresh as possible.

That means, when you're starting to feel tired, you stop - not when you're already tired, but as soon as you feel it coming on, you stop, because the further you push things, the more recovery time you'll need.

Another important thing is to have a teacher who focuses on good technique, and good technique is about relaxing, among other things, about not doing more work than is necessary, and about not holding unnecessary tension anywhere in your body while you're playing. If you can really take those concepts to heart, your practicing will not take as much out of your body or require as much recovery time.

Best of luck to you.

-S-
 
#16
Well, this has been a good read and while I'm still a brand-new noob on the instrument (first day of practice yesterday and whoa, playing the bass definitely takes some strength I do not yet have) and thus don't have the skills at all yet, I'll get there.

I have a lesson lined up with a good local orchestral instructor, but that won't happen for another two weeks.

In the meantime, I figure I can't do too much damage by carefully following the beginning-level book I have, pay attention to good form (feels strange, but I think that'll go away in time), and quit when I'm getting tired -- which happens within 15 minutes or so.
 
#17
SteveFreides said:
What your physio told you is correct as far as it goes, but that and 50 cents will get you on the subway. :) Here's a simple way to think about how to practice: Try to practice as much as possible while staying as fresh as possible.

That means, when you're starting to feel tired, you stop - not when you're already tired, but as soon as you feel it coming on, you stop, because the further you push things, the more recovery time you'll need.

Another important thing is to have a teacher who focuses on good technique, and good technique is about relaxing, among other things, about not doing more work than is necessary, and about not holding unnecessary tension anywhere in your body while you're playing. If you can really take those concepts to heart, your practicing will not take as much out of your body or require as much recovery time.

Best of luck to you.

-S-
Click to expand...

Great advice! Add to that a well set up, easy to play (relatively) bass and you are on your way.
 
#18
Thank you for the kind words, Eric. Here's another take on it, from martials arts legend Bruce Lee - I knew I'd read this before but I just found it again here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."

-- Bruce Lee

I think it's important for both students and teachers to have that three-phase perspective - it won't always be simple and there are definitely times when it's going to feel like hard, complicated work, but the goal is to get to the other side where it's simple again. And I think where a lot of amateur players fall down is that they get stuck in the middle.

The easiest way out of that is to play easier pieces with the goal of playing them, well, easily, to make playing simple. If a student's level doesn't allow them to play hard material easily, then it's important, at least some of the time, for the student to try to play something easy and simple, and to play it as easily and simply and beautifully as they can.

-S-
 
#20
MrLenny1 said:
I saw Ray Brown playing at age 75. He was still a monster on the DB.
I'm 60 and loaded with arthritis.
It's a challenge to keep up my BG playing.
Click to expand...

Was that at the UNH Traditional Jazz Series? That was the one and only time I got to see him play. However, Milt Hinton was there several times into his 80s. A friend pointed out that Milt played standing and questioned why I at a somewhat younger age, I used a stool. I dropped the habit and never looked back.
 

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